Hestia Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Just now, Patine said: People don't think that way when fear is hanging like a cloud. Donald Trump didn't inspire such pragmatic viewpoints in the U.S., did he? I don't believe that there was uprisings in California or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: Perspective, proportion, and context, please. Literalist criticism of analogs are becoming one of the (not the only, but one) of the most trite and tiresome retorts nowadays, frankly. I'd expect such an inane response from certain other posters here, whom I'll have the courtesy not to name. So please, don't. I'd ask the same of you because the American response to Trump's election was nowhere near a violent civil war that has claimed thousands of lives. I thought you might understand that. So please, don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Today so far, Israel, South Korea, Japan and now the EU are evacuating from Ukraine. US intelligence suggests that Russia may not wait until the end of the Olympics (Feb. 20) to invade. They also are reporting Kyiv is included in Russian battle plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 UK Foreign Office now advising against all travel from the UK to Ukraine and advises all UK nationals to leave the nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Just now, Patine said: All doomsaying and Putin bravado aside, I'm dubious of just how far Russia would really push things. Or how far the U.S. would. The old engines of genocide, environmental devastation, and pure evil that were a big deterrent in the Cold War are still there, and armed and operational. This statement is meant to say nothing will happen, or no damage will be done, certainly - but annexation of the WHOLE of Ukraine (assuming the Ukrainian military is actually fully defeated - an oversight in portrayal I've already brought up), but probably, at most, annexing the Russophile Eastern part, or using returning occupied areas to Ukraine in exchange for concessions (like Bismarck did to France in the aftermath of the Franco-Prussian War of 1871). The US has no involvement in Ukraine at the present moment. It seems like truly things have ratcheted up otherwise. We'll see of course where it leads, unfortunately probably very soon. I was a bit like you were in thinking that it probably wouldn't happen at first - but I do agree that Russia will probably just try to annex some eastern/southern territories and make a rump state in the West under their control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Clear change in rhetoric from western officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: Oh, goodness me, "a horrific, bloody campaign that begins with two of aerial bombardment and electronic warfare, followed by an invasion, with the possible goal of regime change." Sounds like Bush's modus operandi in Iraq in 2003, and just as illegally. I'd like to see both Bush AND Putin as defendants at the ICT, one fine, halcyon day... You know it'd be easier to think that you actually condemn this by not seemingly making light of the plight of Ukrainians by saying "oh goodness me". I have a friend in Ukraine and I am worried for her safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, Patine said: You are right, the opening proposition is somewhat flippant. But, can condemnations and pressures from the U.S. Government, who do the exact same kind of thing, hold much moral weight, was my point. Despite not declaring military action as of yet, Biden, a big Senate cheerleader for Democratic votes for the 2003 Iraq invasion, having a truly higher ground, kind of rings hollow. I don't really know if it's the US government who is condemning it only. Most every day people are condemning it because there are quite a few civilians who are about to be suffering for what is going to happen. I don't think we need to follow governments on this one, but what we think in our hearts and minds. Edited February 11, 2022 by Hestia 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobs Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 3 hours ago, Patine said: You are right, the opening proposition is somewhat flippant. But, can condemnations and pressures from the U.S. Government, who do the exact same kind of thing, hold much moral weight, was my point. Despite not declaring military action as of yet, Biden, a big Senate cheerleader for Democratic votes for the 2003 Iraq invasion, having a truly higher ground, kind of rings hollow. No, no it doesn't. The deposition of a brutal dictator with chemical weapons, no matter your position on the invasion's politics and legal validity, is never as morally flawed as a brutal dictator attempting to annex large portions of a democracy and destabilize that democracy into its sphere of influence, full stop. There is no moral equivalency here and your hatred of President Bush and the ridiculously off-kilter comparison to Putin it has engendered does not change that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dobs said: a brutal dictator with chemical weapons Chemical weapons that the US government kind of sold to him Edited February 11, 2022 by jvikings1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobs Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 7 minutes ago, jvikings1 said: Chemical weapons that the US government kind of sold to him Even better, can we have them back please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezi Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Patine said: Second, Bush was the closest thing the U.S. has ever had to a brutal dictator. Woodrow Wilson literally had his political opponents put in jail, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, Patine said: Second, Bush was the closest thing the U.S. has ever had to a brutal dictator. And this is where this rebuttal went wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: From a Bushist's perspective, yes. You've often shown the viewpoint that I am obligated to give kid gloves treatment and gentler words on these sort of things to political leaders you admire over ones you don't, otherwise my presentation becomes objectively and highly obtuse. This is not how the world works. I think it's a bit disingenuous and unfair to call me a Bushist. When I've stated multiple fronts where I've disagreed with his decisions. But I won't waste my breath talking to you. One could say the same of the leaders you've expressed a hint of sympathy for. At the end of the day: I don't care what you say. But I'll still refute it. As will others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 9 minutes ago, Patine said: Which leaders do you speak of, out of curiosity? I'm caught off guard, here. As most people on this forum paying attention well know, I'm very sparing with true praise of political leaders. WHO are you talking about? This is a separate and tangential issue, because I'm really not sure whom you may have gotten in your head I praise and defend, valiantly. I have no desire to discuss this much further, nor debate, and engage in conversation with you. But just for clarity's sake. If you recall, a post from around a month ago where you said you'd support the Alliance Party in America. Whose nominee was Rocky De La Fuente. Ted then reminded us of basically how much a "thief" rocky is in his finances. Now sure, you can go on the 5 paragraph (really a 1 sentence run on) on how the soft Orwellian tactics of the duopoly are 10 times worse than the shady finances of Rocky De La Fuente and his little Alliance Party. But a man such as yourself who emphasizes ultimate perfection, utopian-like qualities, I'd have thought you would immediately dismiss such abhorrent wrongdoings from this Rocky De La Fuente, and completely disavow him. But it appears you have not. Also, just an FYI, if you do reply I will read it, but I will not respond. I've really worked on doubling down my daily intake of your posts. Hearing about the Bush Administration nightmares you have really gets old, along with the mere readings of your posts. This is supposed to be a thread about Ukraine and the sad situation ongoing. Along with the potential prospect of war. I have no desire to continue this further after my remarks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Patine said: Bush was the closest thing the U.S. has ever had to a brutal dictator. How about Huey Long? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Ight ima go talk to them. This shits getting insane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 In the last hour - Reports of evacuations in Donetsk and Luhansk controlled regions for tomorrow. Ukrainian controlled towns have begun immediate evacuations from frontline towns in Donbas. These would be the first evacuations for the whole war from what I'm seeing. - Artillery and shelling of Ukrainian positions. Ukrainian forces returning fire. - Luhansk regional tanks and motorized rifle units advancing towards line of contact between Ukraine and the rebel controlled areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themiddlepolitical Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Hestia said: In the last hour - Reports of evacuations in Donetsk and Luhansk controlled regions for tomorrow. Ukrainian controlled towns have begun immediate evacuations from frontline towns in Donbas. These would be the first evacuations for the whole war from what I'm seeing. - Artillery and shelling of Ukrainian positions. Ukrainian forces returning fire. - Luhansk regional tanks and motorized rifle units advancing towards line of contact between Ukraine and the rebel controlled areas. I just don't see a full scale invasion happening personally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said: I just don't see a full scale invasion happening personally I don't think anything is off the table. I wouldn't be surprised if there was no full scale invasion (or any invasion at all), but I wouldn't be surprised if there was one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said: I just don't see a full scale invasion happening personally arms build ups, field hospitals constructed, ATV's movin in, SU-35's flyin' about 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Pringles said: arms build ups, field hospitals constructed, ATV's movin in, SU-35's flyin' about blood reserves shipped in, shelling of Ukrainian towns, evacuations, construction of bridges near Kyiv... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themiddlepolitical Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hestia said: blood reserves shipped in, shelling of Ukrainian towns, evacuations, construction of bridges near Kyiv... I do think there will be some sort of conflict, just not the massive invasion- which everyone is treating a worse case scenario as what is going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Ukrainian Ministry of Defense confirms evacuations of some areas in the Donbas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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