DakotaHale Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 He also banned TV channels earlier https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/598952-zelensky-says-ukrainian-political-parties-linked-to-russia-banned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blood Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Yeah, governments overstep authority during times of war, it's an unfortunate fact of how the state operates, particularly one under extreme threat of overthrow/collapse like the Zelensky government. It is worth noting that it isn't a permanent ban, only a suspension of operations until martial law is lifted, which I would like Zelensky to do immediately after the hopeful end of hostilities with Ukrainian independence preserved. If he were to maintain martial law after the war my opinions on the man would decrease significantly. Overstep of authority, doesn't significantly change my views on the conflict or how I hope it will end, and just from a cursory glance at some of these parties, I'm willing to guess at least a few have ties to Russia, even if I think the independence of political organizations should be preserved in almost every circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 He did previously jail his political opponent too. Not necessarily something new (which is why I have withheld praise because I don’t see him as some freedom hero even if some of his actions during the war are commendable). The Ukrainian people on the other hand, U have no problem standing with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 It still blows my mind that he was an actor, played the President on a popular tv show, and then as soon as that show was over, ran for President in real life. And won. And now is defending his country from a much more powerful invasion. Its completely insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Desperate times, desperate measures. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezi Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I view it the same way I view Lincolns actions during the Civil War (Suspending Habeas Corpus for example). They're rather anti-liberty and I'm not fully comfortable with them, but as temporary decisions, it's understandable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 14 hours ago, Rezi said: I view it the same way I view Lincolns actions during the Civil War (Suspending Habeas Corpus for example). They're rather anti-liberty and I'm not fully comfortable with them, but as temporary decisions, it's understandable. Na, screw Lincoln for that. Especially since such an action (under the US Constitution) is delegated to Congress by Article I, not the President. Ends don't justify the means. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Anyone care to take a look at what these parties actually stood for? It's pretty likely at least half were aiding Russia by filtering information to them. This is life or death, and hard decisions have to be made. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Platforms - Ukrainophobia, Russophilia, direct ties to United Russia, Putin's Party, Pan-Slavism. Don't pretend that this is all opposition parties in the slightest. Poroshenko's bloc is still there. Tymoshenko's party is still there. These are parties with direct ties to the Kremlin. If you want a quick rundown on them, I suggest you read this Twitter thread. This isn't particularly brutal. These parties will come back after martial law ends. They're not being detained for saying what they want. War is hell, and it's a lot more complicated than trying to affix a particular set of standards on 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, Patine said: Banning political parties has little to do with a war effort. These parties combined had so little representation in the Verkhovna Rada (largely because of post-Maiden Revolt limits and curbing on campaigning laws, and various electoral boycotts, as is) that their legislative clout is not what is, realistically, feared. And no election is going to be held during an all-out invasion. And, if said individual members of these parties (indicting whole parties, or other named, definable groups, in guilt by association is SO Stalinist) are feeding information to Russia, or collaborating with invaders, they would do so whether or not their party was considered legal by Kiev or not, wouldn't they? This particular action (not speaking on any others, at this point, but this particular one) was, INDEED, a flexing of political power and authority and a show of what may likely be in store if, and when, a Russian withdrawal occurs. Bullshit. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blood Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Patine said: INDEED, a flexing of political power and authority and a show of what may likely be in store if, and when, a Russian withdrawal occurs. As much as I oppose this move as a matter of principle, I fully expect Zelensky to lift martial law after the end of hostilities, and if he were to maintain it in some power-grab, I'll have you know the Ukrainian people have a proud modern history of shaking off wanna-be autocrats. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Patine said: Banning political parties has little to do with a war effort. So if Hitler let the communists run wild and free and participate in "elections." With no restrictions whatsoever they wouldn't have been a problem at all? Man he really should've taken some pointers from you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 If these parties had it their way, there would be no Ukraine to run elections in. I'm not going to clutch my pearls because known Russian collaborators aren't allowed in the government fighting Russia. That's all I have to say. Anyone trying to claim they know more about the war effort and what is important and what isn't than those leading it is dead wrong and is simply spouting opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, Hestia said: Platforms - Ukrainophobia, Russophilia, direct ties to United Russia, Putin's Party, Pan-Slavism. Don't pretend that this is all opposition parties in the slightest. Poroshenko's bloc is still there. Tymoshenko's party is still there. These are parties with direct ties to the Kremlin. If you want a quick rundown on them, I suggest you read this Twitter thread. This isn't particularly brutal. These parties will come back after martial law ends. They're not being detained for saying what they want. War is hell, and it's a lot more complicated than trying to affix a particular set of standards on If there is proof of them collaborating with Russia to undermine the Ukrainian resistance, then I don't have a problem with them being designated as a foreign espionage group. And those who are guilty should be arrested for treason. BUT being pro-Russian is not in it of itself collaboration. Probably not the wisest belief system right now but it doesn't mean one who holds such beliefs is automatically a traitor. I am not going to pretend that I have all the facts in this case because I do not. This could very well be justified if there is in fact proof of collaboration. But I am not going to automatically assume that is the case because war propaganda is a very real thing (for all sides). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, Hestia said: If these parties had it their way, there would be no Ukraine to run elections in. I'm not going to clutch my pearls because known Russian collaborators aren't allowed in the government fighting Russia. That's all I have to say. Anyone trying to claim they know more about the war effort and what is important and what isn't than those leading it is dead wrong and is simply spouting opinion. There is a difference between knowing actions are wrong and being skeptical of some things because of war propaganda. Not everything Ukraine says is truthful, and it causes many, myself included, to be skeptical even if we sympathize with the Ukrainian people against aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: You obviously completely misunderstand my concerns, utterly. Or refuse to even consider them. Either way, your views on this issue have descended into absolutist thinking, with no sign of breaking the mold. You've earned your black cape and red lightsaber, Dark Hestia. Oh grow up. Life is complicated. Take a step outside the basement for a moment and look around. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, jvikings1 said: There is a difference between knowing actions are wrong and being skeptical of some things because of war propaganda. Not everything Ukraine says is truthful, and it causes many, myself included, to be skeptical even if we sympathize with the Ukrainian people against aggression. It's fine to be skeptical. I understand your rationale. But Patine blanketly saying that "banning political parties has little to do with the war effort" with no rationale to support such a statement or any knowledge of what is going on in Ukrainian circles is past skeptical. It's opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: I don't live in a basement. And your point-of-view, here, shows far less appreciation for the complexity of life than I ever give, so the irony is rich, here. Here's an idea: if they don't feel like it's fair, make a new political party? Make themselves heard. Prove it. This is war, which is something you are clearly not understanding or taking into your rationale either. You're not accepting that complexity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortKing Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Personally, I would think that with the fog of war being as pervasive and opaque as it is, I don’t know how much good is done trying to evaluate Zelenskyy’s decision making at this juncture. It is possible that we will look back and see overreach in a time of crisis, and it’s possible we look back and see a prescient decision to tackle organizations lending material support for the attempted Russian invasion. It may be premature to offer any strong judgment of this move as there too many unknowable factors at play. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Patine said: Do you think it's so simple as just make a new party? Well, for some maybe. There was a, "rump," party of Yanukovich's Party of Regions that ran in 2015 and 2019 (I can't remember the name), but they were hamstrung by new election laws. Have you tried setting up a new party in Post-Genocide Rwanda? What I'm saying is, once the trigger is pulled on such arbitrary and sweeping action, EVEN during times of war, one has to worry, and have an eye to the future, of where it will end, and how far it will go. And that applies across the board, not just here. We both are VERY fortunate to live in countries that have not been invaded from without since we invaded each other back in 1812. I agree with Short King's response, if that makes any difference. It's too early to say whether it's good or bad, but I'm not going to accept the "it's doomsday" calls at this point, which is what everyone was seemingly gravitating towards. We don't have all information required. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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