Student Debt Think Tank

[MrPotatoTed]

I have no student debt because I served in the military.  Not only did they pay for my entire education and books after, but they also paid me $2,000 a month tax free to be a full time student after I left the military.

Thats an offer that has been on the table for any able bodied and able minded American for the past 15 years.  People don’t want it, that’s fine.  We don’t have a draft, people are free to make their own decisions.  But there is free college AND they’ll even pay you to go, for those who want it.

So I am not overwhelmed with sympathy for those who turned their nose at the offer, and then want the benefit without doing the work.

 

[MrPotatoTed]

Military aside, this is not the time for handing out cash.  Inflation is through the roof.  We need to batten down the hatches, stop throwing even more money into the inflated economy.  Tighten up until inflation returns to normal levels.

[Pringles]

5 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

I have no student debt because I served in the military.  Not only did they pay for my entire education and books after, but they also paid me $2,000 a month tax free to be a full time student after I left the military.

Thats an offer that has been on the table for any able bodied and able minded American for the past 15 years.  People don’t want it, that’s fine.  We don’t have a draft, people are free to make their own decisions.  But there is free college AND they’ll even pay you to go, for those who want it.

So I am not overwhelmed with sympathy for those who turned their nose at the offer, and then want the benefit without doing the work.

 

So true honestly. I've personally always considered military a last resort for me, because I'm willing to try and go to school without getting into debt, or way too much at least. But I agree.  

[MrPotatoTed]

Just now, Pringles said:

So true honestly. I've personally always considered military a last resort for me, because I'm willing to try and go to school without getting into debt, or way too much at least. But I agree.  

Sure.  Military wasn’t my first choice either — I didn’t join until I was sleeping in my car.

But it turned out to be the smartest decision I ever made.  The degrees, the six-figure salary for an easy job, the big house in the good school district, even the wife and daughter.  I wouldn’t have any of it if I hadn’t joined the military.

[ShortKing]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

Sure.  Military wasn’t my first choice either — I didn’t join until I was sleeping in my car.

But it turned out to be the smartest decision I ever made.  The degrees, the six-figure salary for an easy job, the big house in the good school district, even the wife and daughter.  I wouldn’t have any of it if I hadn’t joined the military.

I tried to join when I was in high school but they told me my feet were too flat, and then my younger brother did join and they said his feet were almost too flat (I guess there's a spectrum idk) and it worked out, we're both happy with where we're at, but I still think about how they wouldn't let me join of my own volition and then the next year I had to sign up for the draft. 

[ShortKing]

As it pertains to student loan debt, for sure now's not a great time to aggravate existing inflationary pressures, and generally, a lot of these big sweeping reforms seem less than carefully considered. A Brookings Institute analysis found that under the Warren plan, the bottom 60% of folks with student loan debt would see a third of the benefits. Even some of the narrower and more targeted reforms I have no reflexive objection to, I am wary of the unintended consequences of trying to tackle student loan debt before tackling why tuition has been getting so much more expensive so rapidly.

[MrPotatoTed]

1 minute ago, ShortKing said:

I tried to join when I was in high school but they told me my feet were too flat, and then my younger brother did join and they said his feet were almost too flat (I guess there's a spectrum idk) and it worked out, we're both happy with where we're at, but I still think about how they wouldn't let me join of my own volition and then the next year I had to sign up for the draft. 

I have flat feet.  I’m also color blind.  Nobody cared.

It might matter which service you were trying to enlist in.  They all have different rules.  Air Force was more lenient physically but less lenient on testing (intelligence) and drug/criminal history for example.

Marines would have never taken me, but I had the intelligence level and clean background, so Air Force was happy to have me.  Meanwhile there are top performers in the Marines who could never get into the Air Force.  They each have their specialty.

[Pringles]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Sure.  Military wasn’t my first choice either — I didn’t join until I was sleeping in my car.

But it turned out to be the smartest decision I ever made.  The degrees, the six-figure salary for an easy job, the big house in the good school district, even the wife and daughter.  I wouldn’t have any of it if I hadn’t joined the military.

All of our lives work out a little different. But immense respect for you. My Grandfather was similar.

Never got to meet him as he died in 2000. But he grew up dirt poor picking cotton. Tossed out by his family and was adopted. Went on to join the Army and served as an Army MP in West Berlin. By the time he came back he had a good future ahead of him. He did what he had to do. And I respect it. 

[ShortKing]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

I have flat feet.  I’m also color blind.  Nobody cared.

It might matter which service you were trying to enlist in.  They all have different rules.  Air Force was more lenient physically but less lenient on testing (intelligence) and drug/criminal history for example.

Marines would have never taken me, but I had the intelligence level and clean background, so Air Force was happy to have me.  Meanwhile there are top performers in the Marines who could never get into the Air Force.  They each have their specialty.

Yeah it was for the Air Force actually that I tried to join, and my testing scores were good, I don't remember how well I did on the ASVAB but like, fairly decent I'm pretty sure. I had been told that I could honestly just try again and almost anybody else would have let me through, but it also wasn't a huge passion of mine, I just value public service and thought, I should at least give it an attempt. Just one attempt was good for me though, more than happy to take it as a sign to go a different path. Just a little peeved that they were like, "you can't choose to join but we are still gonna draft you if need be".

[MrPotatoTed]

11 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

Yeah it was for the Air Force actually that I tried to join, and my testing scores were good, I don't remember how well I did on the ASVAB but like, fairly decent I'm pretty sure. I had been told that I could honestly just try again and almost anybody else would have let me through, but it also wasn't a huge passion of mine, I just value public service and thought, I should at least give it an attempt. Just one attempt was good for me though, more than happy to take it as a sign to go a different path. Just a little peeved that they were like, "you can't choose to join but we are still gonna draft you if need be".

Ha, if we ever reach the point where we need a draft, the standards for who is fit enough to fight goes WAY lower.  "Do you have two arms?  Oh...just one arm?  Okay.  That's probably fine.  You're in."

[DakotaHale]

[DakotaHale]

1 minute ago, Patine said:

I am perplexed by the relevance and message of this picture without an attached label. I don't even know, for sure, who this guy is, and I can't fully read the company/NGO logo behind him. Could you elaborate, please?

Dave Ramsey, a financial educator specializing in debt. His financial/debt advice is solid but avoid his investing advice. Very blunt and old-fashioned.

[MrPotatoTed]

7 minutes ago, Patine said:

I guess @MrPotatoTed and @Pringles believe, given their disagreements, that everyone who can't to pay for post-secondary education up front, or are able to repay a loan in short order, or receive a scholarship or endowment, should just join the military, and if they don't, they have no cause or right to complain about being deeply in debt, and certainly don't deserve debt receive. It might shock them that not everyone is up that Heinleinesque, "Starship Troopers," viewpoint on things - especially given the very questionable activities the U.S. - and most other major - militaries get up to nowadays. Eisenhower, himself, upon retiring from the White House, warned to avoid the rise of the military-industrial complex. However, it's obvious more than just the industrial aspect has been compromised, here.

You don’t have to guess what I believe at all.  I actually told you what I believe, in writing.  You can just go back and read it at any time, if you’ve forgotten what it was.

[themiddlepolitical]

As someone who was homeless at a time when I was a child, and am now going to be making more money straight out of college then any of my family members couldn’t of imagined making by 50, let alone 22. I put myself through college and had zero help, and still have debt (Though because of my income it won’t be an issue and I will be able to pay it off fast- but that’s not a common story) I would be willing any second to pay higher in taxes throughout my life so people have a fair opportunity- I am absolutely sick of the bootlicker mentality a lot of people have- as if comparing their same stroke of luck/motivation will be the same for others. If I didn’t have a support system from friends and my partner that I did through college, I wouldn’t of had the motivation to do so well. The whole argument of “well I did this, you could have done that” is just unfortunate, and is why the U.S is ranked so, so low in so many quality of life rankings. We are all different, we should be empathetic to everyones struggles- Even though many will say their empathic then lead it off after with “Well I am empathic BUT”. 

@MrPotatoTed @vcczar @ whoever else 

Edited April 5, 2022 by themiddlepolitical

[Pringles]

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

As someone who was homeless at a time when I was a child, and am now going to be making more money straight out of college then any of my family members couldn’t of imagined making by 50, let alone 22. I put myself through college and had zero help, and still have debt (Though because of my income it won’t be an issue and I will be able to pay it off fast- but that’s not a common story) I would be willing any second to pay higher in taxes throughout my life so people have a fair opportunity-

If I didn’t have a support system from friends and my partner that I did through college, I wouldn’t of had the motivation to do so well. The whole argument of “well I did this, you could have done that” is just unfortunate, and is why the U.S is ranked so, so low in so many quality of life rankings. We are all different, we should be empathetic to everyones struggles- Even though many will say their empathic then lead it off after with “Well I am empathic BUT”. 

@MrPotatoTed @vcczar @ whoever else 

Ok, I want to respond to this as respectfully as possible. Because I think there is a fundamental difference of philosophy here. But I can't help to refute some of your points. So I hope you take it as constructive criticism. 

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

I am absolutely sick of the bootlicker mentality a lot of people have- as if comparing their same stroke of luck/motivation will be the same for others.

Ok, so I'm not seeing the bootlicker mentality here. All people have some kind of ability in them to do well, or not to do well. Opportunities come and go, even for the most unfortunate in society. How's that boot licking?

 

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

I would be willing any second to pay higher in taxes throughout my life so people have a fair opportunity-

What exactly constitutes as a fair opportunity? Concerning education nothing is stopping you from that. Many decide to actually not go to college, and still end up doing well for themselves. What does paying higher taxes have to do with ensuring having a fair opportunity? Cause now this is just getting into a political argument. 

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

and is why the U.S is ranked so, so low in so many quality of life rankings.

I'm not sure what quality of life ranking we're looking at here, and while of course we aren't the top 5, I never have said for the record. We are quite high, and higher than other countries. In the Human Development Index we're 17/189 I believe. That's so, so, low?????

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

we should be empathetic to everyones struggles

That's fine, charity exists. I've contributed to charity. But just because I don't subscribe to your point of view that Government should fully help and assume ensuring everyone has a "fair opportunity." Does that make me a bad person then? Does that make me a bootlicker?

 

53 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

Even though many will say their empathic then lead it off after with “Well I am empathic BUT”. 

By the end of reading this I just got ranting, criticism vibes from this. So I'm sorry if that wasn't the intention, whether it was directed at me, or others, I don't really care. But I felt the need to respond to this. Because the fact is life isn't handed on a silver platter. It never will be. An individual has choices they have to make. 

If life was handed on a silver platter, that would awfully ruin ones humanity imo.

I can't help but point out the irony here, is that one could argue you're ranting from a privileged position, from the same aspect of Ted that you appeared to be criticizing. Just a reversed position/role. 

@MrPotatoTed Said he was living out of his car. The military changed his life. So there's more in common here than you think. You're of course going to advocate your point of view cause that's how you succeeded. Ted will do the same because that's how he's succeeded. There's no need to criticize his bootlicker mentality when one could argue that your entire post is hypocritical.

Anyways, that concludes my points I've been contemplating for the last 15 minutes.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Pringles

[Rezi]

6 minutes ago, Pringles said:

What exactly constitutes as a fair opportunity? Concerning education nothing is stopping you from that. Many decide to actually not go to college, and still end up doing well for themselves. What does paying higher taxes have to do with ensuring having a fair opportunity? Cause now this is just getting into a political argument. 

I believe that he is constituting a fair opportunity as the ability for people to gain a higher education without being shackled to any debts regardless of their financial situation.

[Pringles]

4 minutes ago, Rezi said:

I believe that he is constituting a fair opportunity as the ability for people to gain a higher education without being shackled to any debts regardless of their financial situation.

Is that his sole view of a fair opportunity though? Because people still have the opportunity to go to college without debt. Albeit your chances are slim, but that's what makes it an opportunity, no?

I suppose we all have the opportunity to go to college for free by getting a perfect SAT score and tons of scholarships as a result. 

That's an opportunity for all students. Whether you have the ability to do well is another question. 

[themiddlepolitical]

6 minutes ago, Pringles said:

Ok, I want to respond to this as respectfully as possible. Because I think there is a fundamental difference of philosophy here. But I can't help to refute some of your points. So I hope you take it as constructive criticism. 

Ok, so I'm not seeing the bootlicker mentality here. All people have some kind of ability in them to do well, or not to do well. Opportunities come and go, even for the most unfortunate in society. How's that boot licking?

 

What exactly constitutes as a fair opportunity? Concerning education nothing is stopping you from that. Many decide to actually not go to college, and still end up doing well for themselves. What does paying higher taxes have to do with ensuring having a fair opportunity? Cause now this is just getting into a political argument. 

I'm not sure what quality of life ranking we're looking at here, and while of course we aren't the top 5, I never have said for the record. We are quite high, and higher than other countries. In the Human Development Index we're 17/189 I believe. That's so, so, low?????

That's fine, charity exists. I've contributed to charity. But just because I don't subscribe to your point of view that Government should fully help and assume ensuring everyone has a "fair opportunity." Does that make me a bad person then? Does that make me a bootlicker?

 

By the end of reading this I just got ranting, criticism vibes from this. So I'm sorry if that wasn't the intention, whether it was directed at me, or others, I don't really care. But I felt the need to respond to this. Because the fact is life isn't handed on a silver platter. It never will be. An individual has choices they have to make. 

If life was handed on a silver platter, that would awfully ruin ones humanity imo.

I can't help but point out the irony here, is that one could argue you're ranting from a privileged position, from the same aspect of Ted that you appeared to be criticizing. Just a reversed position/role. 

@MrPotatoTed Said he was living out of his car. The military changed his life. So there's more in common here than you think. You're of course going to advocate your point of view cause that's how you succeeded. Ted will do the same because that's how he's succeeded. There's no need to criticize his bootlicker mentality when one could argue that your entire post is hypocritical.

Anyways, that concludes my points I've been contemplating for the last 15 minutes.

 

“Ok, so I'm not seeing the bootlicker mentality here. All people have some kind of ability in them to do well, or not to do well. Opportunities come and go, even for the most unfortunate in society. How's that boot licking“

-This is from such a privileged position, and agains assumes so much from a persons environment. Oppurtunities come and go? No they don’t- That is almost to the point of victim blaiming from a class perspective, yes alot of people have oppurtunities and miss them but so many more never have true oppurtunities to suceed. 

“What exactly constitutes as a fair opportunity? Concerning education nothing is stopping you from that. Many decide to actually not go to college, and still end up doing well for themselves. What does paying higher taxes have to do with ensuring having a fair opportunity? Cause now this is just getting into a political argument.“

-A fair opportunity is ensuring somebody has the opportunity to be educated and get a degree without being burdened by a life time of debt- even if it’s there choice. Then the whole idea of “don’t go to college get a trade job” as if those jobs aren’t drying up across the country, then not only can’t you find work, you can’t find work without a degree so your oppurtunities shrink. 

 

“I'm not sure what quality of life ranking we're looking at here, and while of course we aren't the top 5, I never have said for the record. We are quite high, and higher than other countries. In the Human Development Index we're 17/189 I believe. That's so, so, low?????”” Yes 17/189 is absolutely laughable as the most rich country on earth, I don’t see your point here.

“That's fine, charity exists. I've contributed to charity. But just because I don't subscribe to your point of view that Government should fully help and assume ensuring everyone has a "fair opportunity." Does that make me a bad person then? Does that make me a bootlicker?” I honestly don’t even know what to respond to this bolded part of the quote here, I think this just needs some soul searching to really think about why you think this, and It’s good you contribute to charity, but subscribing to beliefs that contribute to more users of that charity (aka not getting people out of poverty, or helping them with government funding so there needs to be more users of said charity) again doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

-“Said he was living out of his car. The military changed his life. So there's more in common here than you think. You're of course going to advocate your point of view cause that's how you succeeded. Ted will do the same because that's how he's succeeded. There's no need to criticize his bootlicker mentality when one could argue that your entire post is hypocritical.”

I was actually not talking to anyone I was just saying my peace so others could read it, and definitely not Ted, I completely understand his view point and that we just have different philosophies on this issue. @MrPotatoTed

 

 

[Rezi]

1 minute ago, Pringles said:

Is that his sole view of a fair opportunity though? Because people still have the opportunity to go to college without debt. Albeit your chances are slim, but that's what makes it an opportunity, no?

I suppose we all have the opportunity to go to college for free by getting a perfect SAT score and tons of scholarships as a result. 

That's an opportunity for all students. Whether you have the ability to do well is another question. 

I suppose it would be a bit broader of a definition for opportunity, being "if a public higher educational institution deems you worthy of attending their school, you should be able to gain an education from them without being shackled to debt"

[themiddlepolitical]

3 minutes ago, Pringles said:

Is that his sole view of a fair opportunity though? Because people still have the opportunity to go to college without debt. Albeit your chances are slim, but that's what makes it an opportunity, no?

I suppose we all have the opportunity to go to college for free by getting a perfect SAT score and tons of scholarships as a result. 

That's an opportunity for all students. Whether you have the ability to do well is another question. 

So many other things contribute to high SAT scores. Living environment, The child’s school funding and opportunity, their parents and situation- all things they absolutely cannot control. At that point it’s blaming it on the child for not doing well enough, which is frankly just wrong.

Edited April 5, 2022 by themiddlepolitical

[themiddlepolitical]

@Pringles

All said, I am not trying to be brash/aggressive here, or argumentative. Just a philosophical difference and a debate. 

[Pringles]

20 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

This is from such a privileged position, and agains assumes so much from a persons environment. Oppurtunities come and go? No they don’t- That is almost to the point of victim blaiming from a class perspective, yes alot of people have oppurtunities and miss them but so many more never have true oppurtunities to suceed. 

As I said in my first post, your own position can also be considered to be stated from a position of privilege. All of ours can in fact. 

20 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

Yes 17/189 is absolutely laughable as the most rich country on earth, I don’t see your point here.

 I don't see yours either, respectfully. Us being the richest country means we have to be the number 1 quality of life?

 

20 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

A fair opportunity is ensuring somebody has the opportunity to be educated and get a degree without being burdened by a life time of debt- even if it’s there choice. Then the whole idea of “don’t go to college get a trade job” as if those jobs aren’t drying up across the country, then not only can’t you find work, you can’t find work without a degree so your oppurtunities shrink. 

Sure. Basically what I said, this doesn't refute what I said. There is the opportunity. Get a perfect SAT score. Get that scholarship money, them Biden Bucks, whatever floats your boat. 😛 

20 minutes ago, themiddlepolitical said:

I honestly don’t even know what to respond to this bolded part of the quote here, I think this just needs some soul searching to really think about why you think this, and It’s good you contribute to charity, but subscribing to beliefs that contribute to more users of that charity (aka not getting people out of poverty, or helping them with government funding so there needs to be more users of said charity) again doesn’t make much sense to me.

It's admirable to want to fight poverty. However government can sometimes actually perpetuate it and cause even more poverty in the long run. This isn't an opposition to all form of government help, my point was partly devils advocate. But I'm also not sure what the exact point is here. Other than I'm morally flawed for donating to charity, but not advocating the government intervention to the level that you might fancy.

 

Once again, getting rant vibes, but I just saw your clarification on your posts intentions and I'll leave it at this if you like. I'm glad we have had a fruitful discussion. 😄 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Pringles

[Edouard]

I currently am on my sixth year of university.

I already have a student debt of 3k, but if my parents hadn't placed money and were not giving me money each month it would actually be of roughly 50k after 5 years of uni for zero tuition fees (as I didn't have to pay any prior to these years).

So my current student debt is just made of location and food.

That's why, if I had to pay a 10 000 pounds/dollars tuition fees like it does exists in several countries and states I would probably have 50k of debt (with my parents' help) and 100k without, for exactly the same degree and the same education.

I am not the most liberal in this forum, but such thing is totally absurd.

What makes that someone practizing in higher university in the US deserved to pay 50k more than me for the same five years? I really don't know.

What I also hate with studies is that high tuition fees contribute, not to the funding of universities.

You don't pay for the quality of your university, for rooms, for basic professors' salaries, you are paying for transfers.

I liked Buttigieg's plan of closing tuition fees for 80% of student from the lowest incomes and not for the top 20%.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Edouard

[MrPotatoTed]

Options exist, for those who want them.  Including those born into poverty, those who don’t have a natural inclination for academics but are willing to do the work, etc.

Some people don’t want that opportunity, and that’s okay!

But having been a former beggar, I was not also a chooser.  I took the opportunity my country handed me, and my life has been damned near perfect ever since.

”But I don’t waaaaaant to.”

Not a problem!

But then stop whining about it.

[MrPotatoTed]

11 minutes ago, Patine said:

And some people are denied that opportunity de facto, if not by a, "rule on paper," - but because social unfairness conspires against them. And some people completely undeserving are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. And that IS a problem, and something deserving of far more than, "whining," to address.

Denied what opportunity?  To join the military?

Theyll take almost anyone who is able bodied and able minded.  (And I completely support handouts for those who are not able bodied and able minded.)

I don’t know why you’re talking about people with silver spoons.  That has nothing to do with this.

An opportunity exists for those who want it.  But if people who are perfectly capable of taking that opportunity choose not to, that is not a problem that I feel motivated to solve.  Weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision — the military isn’t ideal for everyone, and frankly I mostly didn’t like it either.  But I did it anyway, because adults have to do things they don’t like sometimes.  And I have been infinitely rewarded for it.