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Democracy Journal - Virtual Convention


10centjimmy
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https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/61/the-democracy-constitution/

 

The link above shares a fascinating process by which a number of constitutional scholars across the county came together to develop a potential revamped U.S. constitution. The process started just before the COVID-19 shutdown and continued through virtual convention meetings to the finished product in March 2021.

Very interesting idea, and remarkable that they were able to do it all remotely and come to a consensus on a lot of contentious topics. 

Edited by 10centjimmy
Fixed the spectrum point!
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Though I will say, the people who came to work on this project did come from a wide variety of legal backgrounds. University of Alabama law is not a particularly liberal institution, unlike the University of Chicago.

If you take the time to read through the project, I think you'll find it interesting in how they arrived at certain conclusions, political biases or personal beliefs notwithstanding.

Small "c" conservatives, small "l" liberals, and small "s" social democrats won't always arrive at same conclusions (duh) because their goals are different. Why would conservatives/moderates want to dramatically change something that they benefit from? Status quo works for them. So in a system that is seen as "staid", revision would be pushed by those with reformist visions in mind.

Edited by 10centjimmy
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14 minutes ago, Patine said:

all because the Royalists sat on the right-side of the King or Speaker in the House, and the Parliamentarians sat on his left

That's really interesting. I always understood left-right to come from the French Revolution National Assembly period with the various political clubs sitting according to membership - Jacobins, monarchists, Girondins.

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10 hours ago, 10centjimmy said:

Small "c" conservatives, small "l" liberals, and small "s" social democrats won't always arrive at same conclusions (duh) because their goals are different. Why would conservatives/moderates want to dramatically change something that they benefit from? Status quo works for them. So in a system that is seen as "staid", revision would be pushed by those with reformist visions in mind.

"It’s easy to confuse 'what is' with 'what ought to be', especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor."

Proper reform will only come from those willing to look past the politics of the moment.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

while the U.S. still maintains complete power over the process by Federal and State lawmakers with no mandated or binding participation, consultation, or approval of the voters 

To be fair, the United States as is stands is a federal republic, with the levers of power held by duly elected representatives. Now, decision making lies with the representatives/Senators(and the President), but they are elected by the people. It's on the American citizens on how they define and execute their citizenship. Some people just vote and leave it at that. Others do more drastic actions. 

I am not an expert on the Kazakh constitution, but I can say that the U.S. framers did not write in a national referendum clause. Would it be cool or useful? Yes, the country is way less local than it was in its founding AND National referendums could solve a lot of issues (or cause some new ones once you get tyranny of the majority). 

I assume your country of origin also struggles with civic participation? 

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The problem with a national referendum is...you know....this is a nation that elected Donald Trump as President of the United States.

And in case that isn't enough -- after he was an absolute shitshow of a President for four years -- even MORE people voted for him to remain President of the United States.

A person can be smart -- but people as a whole are remarkably stupid.  I've met people.  They're the worst.

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9 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

The problem with a national referendum is...you know....this is a nation that elected Donald Trump as President of the United States.

And in case that isn't enough -- after he was an absolute shitshow of a President for four years -- even MORE people voted for him to remain President of the United States.

This seems like more like an argument for, than against, referenda, considering we would not have gotten a President Trump if we had the equivalent of a referendum for the 2016 election...

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9 minutes ago, jnewt said:

This seems like more like an argument for, than against, referenda, considering we would not have gotten a President Trump if we had the equivalent of a referendum for the 2016 election...

I took it to mean voting on individual laws.  And given that a majority of the country polled as being against gay marriage until after it was legalized in 2015...and less than TWENTY percent of the country polled as being in favor of interracial marriage when it became law in 1967... there are really clear reasons why majority vote actually totally sucks for individual laws.  

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You are imagining that the mob would make things better.  But when the mob is against interracial marriage, is against gay marriage, has no feasible way of possibly knowing what the tariff level should be or which treaty to sign...the mob is an uneducated and bigoted mess.

And you need no further proof than just to look at the fact that they keep voting for “the establishment and their cronies.”  Ha.  These are not the people who are going to collectively vote to make the world a better place.  

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If everything is done by majority vote -- what happens to the minorities?  Race, age, gender, disabilities, immigrants (legal and otherwise), LGBT, etc?

This isn't hypothetical.  We already know the answer, from the polling I referenced above. 

Rights for those who aren't part of the majority do not gain the approval of the majority until AFTER they become guaranteed by law.

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24 minutes ago, Patine said:

Did you know that White people aren't a statistical majority in the U.S. anymore? And American attitudes toward acceptance - or just tolerance toward, or even resignation and a loss of a desire to fight (like Michelle Bachmann's 2012 quote) - of same-sex marriage and other such "non-traditionally-conformist lifestyles," have radically changed in the seven years since the 2015 poll you quoted. Your own nation is moving too fast for you to keep up with! 😛 

Dude...that is my POINT.

The law changed in 2015.  And so public opinion changed with it.

People were against it until it became the law -- now the majority are for it.

So if we wait for a majority to support giving minorities rights, then it will never become a law at all -- and thus never gain majority support.  

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35 minutes ago, Patine said:

Did you know that White people aren't a statistical majority in the U.S. anymore? 

Just one last thing, because I believe that facts are important.

According to the US Census Bureau, as of July 1, 2021 (most recent data available), 76.3% of the US population is "White, alone", meaning that they are just Caucasian, no other races mixed in to their knowledge.

Hispanic is not a race, but more than 60% of the US population is "White, not Hispanic" according to the same data from the US Census Bureau.

You just make shit up and then act like I'm the stupid one.

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4 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Just one last thing, because I believe that facts are important.

According to the US Census Bureau, as of July 1, 2021 (most recent data available), 76.3% of the US population is "White, alone", meaning that they are just Caucasian, no other races mixed in to their knowledge.

Hispanic is not a race, but more than 60% of the US population is "White, not Hispanic" according to the same data from the US Census Bureau.

You just make shit up and then act like I'm the stupid one.

 

On 6/14/2022 at 11:17 PM, MrPotatoTed said:

I took it to mean voting on individual laws.  And given that a majority of the country polled as being against gay marriage until after it was legalized in 2015...and less than TWENTY percent of the country polled as being in favor of interracial marriage when it became law in 1967... there are really clear reasons why majority vote actually totally sucks for individual laws.  

 

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

Well, a final parting shot to dampen the self-indulgent tromp and flourish you storm away with with no doubt theatrical drama you're very accustomed to on-stage - you didn't present hard facts, just pushed a narrow point-of-view with very dubious support, and deliberately ignored and pushed away everything I said that didn't conform to your strict narrative. Don't congratulate yourself so quickly.

I've quoted the actual facts that I provided, above -- hard data.  Feel free to quote the actual facts you provided.

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14 minutes ago, Patine said:

I don't know what's so funny, @MrPotatoTed. I would say your own arguments, and the way you present is more laughable, to be honest. But some people, especially online, seem to have to make a habit of mocking and talking down to someone derisively in serious debates to hide the fact they really can't produce anything but the canned and cliched, but ultimately highly flawed, tropes of argument they always lean on. But if that makes you laugh, it says a lot about you, doesn't it. And, contrary to what you may believe, it reflects far more poorly on you than on me. But have fun in your delusional laughing chamber, there. I'm moving on with my day.

My apologies, I may have misunderstood.  I thought you were actually trying to be a clown with those responses.

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