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Convention in Philadelphia Day Two


WVProgressive
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Old Business and New For the 2nd Day of the Philadelphian Constitutional Convention.  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. What should the structure of the Legislative Branch be?

    • Bicameral elected legislature. Lower House determined by population, Upper House has equal representation.
      7
    • Unicameral elected legislature determined by population.
      6
  2. 2. How should the president be elected?

    • President, and Vice-President elected separately using popular vote
      8
    • President, and Vice-President elected on tickets using popular vote
      5
  3. 3. Which rights, if any should be enumerated in the constitution?

    • None. Enumerating these rights would mean losing any rights not mentioned.
      2
    • Freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition.
      11
    • Right to keep and bear arms in order to maintain a well regulated militia.
      10
    • Right to not quarter soldiers
      9
    • Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
      10
    • Right to due process of law, freedom from self-incrimination, double jeopardy.
      10
    • Rights of accused persons, e.g., right to a speedy and public trial.
      10
    • Right of trial by jury in civil cases.
      10
    • Freedom from excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishments.
      10
    • Rights of the states to any power not explicitly given to the Federal government in the constitution
      8
    • The right to a basic income
      2
    • Right to equal treatment under the law
      9
    • Unabridged right to vote unless convicted of a felony
      8
    • Right to a basic education
      6
    • Freedom from economic monopolies
      4
    • The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living
      7
    • The right to decent housing
      4
    • Right to employment
      3
    • Right to a living wage
      4
    • The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment
      3
  4. 4. Following the abolition of slavery, the southern states of SC, GA, VA, and MD have declared their opposition to our constitution, and have called a convention in Baltimore to draft a different one. What should our response be?

    • The Southerners are right! Join this second American Revolution!
      1
    • Don't address them, and just let them go. Who needs southerners anyway?
      4
    • Denounce this second convention, but do nothing else. We're simply too weak to fight them.
      2
    • Invade these slavers! We'll force them to end their barbarism, one way or another!
      6


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(OOC: Since I' pretty sure we've reached peak turnout, and since we have numerous ties in the previous poll, here's day two of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention.)

Here's what was ratified by a majority of nine votes in the last poll:

Powers of the Federal Government Branch

  • The power to coin money
  • The power to regulate inter-state commerce
  •  The power to declare war
  •  The power to raise and maintain armed forces
  •  The power to establish a Post Office.
  •  The power to build roads
  •  The power to collect taxes
  • The power to borrow money
  • The power to regulate international commerce
  • The power to regulate intra-state commerce
  • The power to make necessary, and proper laws
  • The power to charter banks, and corporations
  • The power to spend money for the general welfare
  • The power to establish federal courts

Process for Amending the Constitution: Amendments must be passed by a 2/3rds majority in congress, then be ratified by a 3/4th of the states before taking effect.

Status of Slavery: Completely Abolished

Right to vote: All peoples over the age of 21

Judicial Branch: Historical

For the unresolved topics from the previous poll, I'll eliminate all but the two most popular options.
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10 minutes ago, Patine said:

I feel I was shut out by having a valid option that did come up historically be unaddressed when I mentioned it as an unavailable option, except by two posters who just mocked me, but was otherwise ignored and no way to express such a view around an already laid down poll presented or suggested.

As a southerner I also feel shut out too. As my right to have slaves is deprived of me!

(just kidding. but not kidding in RP sense.)

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

I feel I was shut out by having a valid option that did come up historically be unaddressed when I mentioned it as an unavailable option, except by two posters who just mocked me, but was otherwise ignored and no way to express such a view around an already laid down poll presented or suggested.

Well I apologize, I'd never heard of a Presidium before, and did not know it was considered at the historical constitutional convention. If I could edit the poll to include it as an option I would have when you brought it up, but I can't.

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25 minutes ago, Zenobiyl said:

Are there gonna be separate polls for the soon to be Confederate States of America?

Hmm... I'm not sure, since I kind of want this to focus on American history. If there seems like enough enthusiasm for such a thing, I'll do one, especially since it seems a lot of respondents are fine with letting the South walk.

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Speaking more as a fellow poll taker, rather than as the GM, I'm really kind of surprised/disappointed that a lot of respondents voted to just allow the CSA to succeed. Surely, even if you disagree with the idea that keeping the union together is inherently the best decision, you would agree that we'd have a moral duty to free the enslaved Black population in CSA territory, no?

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10 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

Speaking more as a fellow poll taker, rather than as the GM, I'm really kind of surprised/disappointed that a lot of respondents voted to just allow the CSA to succeed. Surely, even if you disagree with the idea that keeping the union together is inherently the best decision, you would agree that we'd have a moral duty to free the enslaved Black population in CSA territory, no?

Sounds like Northern Aggression. 

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6 minutes ago, Patine said:

Ultimately, a slave economy is doomed to fail monstrously, anyways, and the rest of the world will end such practices, and, when the Khedive of Egypt of starts selling cotton on the market in bulk without the slave labour stain, the CSA will be doomed to economic collapse, and probably chaos as Blacks and Poor Whites revolt, anyways...

No one would know this at the time. 

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7 minutes ago, Patine said:

Why force two regions of people who will be killing each other in a vicious, horrid, destructive war in 70 years be in the borders mandatorily? Do you disagree with the South Sudan breaking from the Sudan, or East Timor from Indonesia, or (other than the Fall of Communism which accompanied them) the Breakup of the USSR or Yugoslavia, or do you believe they, should have mandatorily been forced to remain under the same borders and government despite all the disastrous consequences and internal violence and animosity? Ultimately, a slave economy is doomed to fail monstrously, anyways, and the rest of the world will end such practices, and, when the Khedive of Egypt of starts selling cotton on the market in bulk without the slave labour stain, the CSA will be doomed to economic collapse, and probably chaos as Blacks and Poor Whites revolt, anyways...

The South Sudan-CSA comparison might work... If the Confederacy wasn't LITTERALLY founded to protect slavery. Slavery, and those who practice, and protect it are unquestionably evil, and evil cannot be allowed to exist. It is the moral duty of moral citizens to stamp out evil. If we were to allow a country, founded entirely on the basis of protecting a person's 'right' to own another person, to exist right outside our doorstep, we would not only be failing morally, we'd be making a mockery of the very idea of morality, and of our claims to stand for Liberty, and Justice for all. You don't want live in this country, because you want to own slaves? Fine, we have lead cure for that, but you are not allowed to take 'your' slaves with you.

Edited by WVProgressive
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1 hour ago, WVProgressive said:

Speaking more as a fellow poll taker, rather than as the GM, I'm really kind of surprised/disappointed that a lot of respondents voted to just allow the CSA to succeed. Surely, even if you disagree with the idea that keeping the union together is inherently the best decision, you would agree that we'd have a moral duty to free the enslaved Black population in CSA territory, no?

Yep.  I voted for the 20 year moratorium to keep the peace, but having failed that and with states seceding, then I voted for war.

But as a GM, I always like when the players make a poor/unrealistic choice under the assumption that there will be no consequences, because the whole POINT of being a GM is to consequence!

;c)

 

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

But, other than militarily cooperating in the Revolutionary War against Britain to gain independence in the first place, what obligation or mandatory duty did the 13 States have to each other to become a single nation, and not between 2 and 13 independent nations, depending? A lot of people today seem to feel that such an obligation was solidly there, but I have heard few reasons given as to why, other than the modern Union and all it's accomplished (for good and ill) looking back, but from a 1787 viewpoint, I mean.

Survival.  

There's no point to fighting a revolutionary war if you're going to be easily conquered by the next nation that comes along.

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9 hours ago, Patine said:

Which nations? France was wiped off mainland North America at the end of the French and Indian Wars. The Miami Confederacy still suffered from wretchedly low technology and anachronistic military organization. The Spanish Colonial Empire was receding and in deep decline, as the rapid successes and ease of the Spanish American Wars of Independence in 1810's-1830's definitely showed. The areas of New Spain, and later Mexico, west of the Mississippi were very sparsely populated. And, even not a political union, a pragmatic military alliance (at least first) could have formed.

Any nation with a boat?  

I don't think you understand how small and poorly populated individual states were at the time.  At it's peak during the Revolutionary War, the 13 colonies had a combined 80,000 troops.  Divided evenly, that's only about 6,000 soldiers per state...and of course "divided evenly" is the wrong way to do it, because states like Rhode Island and Delaware had much less than that.  And we haven't even factored in the reality that nearly 7,000 of those troops were killed in the war, 6,000 were wounded so badly it's unlikely they could have ever fought again, and another 17,000 died of disease.  That leaves about 50,000 surviving troops still capable of defending their homeland,  or an average of fewer than 4,000 per state.  Again, "average" -- so some states would have much less.

Edited by MrPotatoTed
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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

I don't think you understand the logistics of transcontinental war back then. That was why Britain lost the Revolutionary War, in fact, and why Spain couldn't hold onto the Spanish American colonies when they fought for independence in the 1810's-1830's, or France couldn't hold Haiti in the slave revolt of 1791-1806. Beating up primitive, poorly-organized indigenous people, and taking their land and resources, and forcing them into labour and conversion, was easy, like being a bully. But not so much if you're fighting people who use European-style military tactics, organization, doctrine, and weapons when you're transporting and supplying across the ocean and they're on home turf.

Of course I understand that.  But this was also a (literal, at times) GOLDMINE of untapped resources to be exploited and sold for a fortune in the European markets.  Was it worth fighting all 13 colonies at once?  Probably not, and that's largely why other nations eventually stopped trying.  But pick off an independent colony or two to establish a foothold to start grabbing those resources?  That could be done with little effort at all, without allies for those colonies to call upon to help defend them.

Edited by MrPotatoTed
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It's been 24 hours, and change since the poll was posted, so let's progress.

Results of the 2nd day of the Constitutional Convention:

Legislative Branch: Bicameral elected legislature. Lower House determined by population, Upper House has equal representation.

Presidential Selection: The President, and Vice-President shall be elected separately using a popular vote method

Rights Enumerated in the Constitution:
Freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition.
Right to keep and bear arms in order to maintain a well regulated militia.
Right to not quarter soldiers
Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
Right to due process of law, freedom from self-incrimination, double jeopardy.
Rights of accused persons, e.g., right to a speedy and public trial.
Right of trial by jury in civil cases.
Freedom from excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishments.
Rights of the states to any power not explicitly given to the Federal government in the constitution
The right to a basic income
Right to equal treatment under the law
Unabridged right to vote unless convicted of a felony
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living

Response to secession: No official response, but border skirmishes between USA, and CSA citizens, and militias are highly reported, with increasing brutality as the days drag on... 

The poll for the 1789 elections will be u shortly.

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