Ranking Poll 4

[vcczar]

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Here's the next round. St Peter has been promoted to this group. We may have a tie-breaking round. 

 

Muhammad	the founder of Islam, which quickly spread throughout Arabia in his lifetime. As a political leader, he created the first Islamic state, and initiated the first Arab conquests. He was also the author of the Quran. Islam is currently the second largest religion. Like with Jesus and other religious founders, many false believers have carried out atrocities in the name of Muhammad’s religion.
William Shakespeare	The most successful figure in world literature, and the primary figure in the development of the English language into a world language. He also wrote plays that have been translated, spread, and staged across the world, even to the present day. Probably the most well-known figure in literature, even after 400 years. Profound influence on all major writers since his death.
Thomas Jefferson	Primary author of the US Declaration of Independence; leader of one of the first two US political parties; co-wrote a resolution that led to secession down the road; 3rd president; presided during the Louisiana Purchase and the International Slave Trade Ban; democratized the presidency by ending European-style pomp and circumstance.
Leonardo da Vinci	Painted some of the most popular and most reproduced works of art; considered the epitome of a "Renaissance Man" for being arguably the most diversely talented person in human history; made several unrealized scientific discoveries and innovations in a variety of field, but had little impact on the independent discoveries as he never published his findings and they remained unknown for a long time.
James Watt	Invented the first practical steam engine, which allowed engines to use something other than wind, water, or muscle-power; Also, this fuel was transportable; invented the concept of horsepower
St Thomas Aquinas	Ground breaking theologian and philosopher who attempted to reconcile Christian theology with Aristotle's philosophy, leading to the concepts of arguing for the existence of God on reason and ordinary experience rather than by faith and scripture alone.
John Dalton	developed modern atomic theory.

Saint Peter

According to orthodox Christian belief, served as the first Christian leader after the death of Jesus and as the first pope; Christian folklore states that Peter holds the keys to Heaven.

[jvikings1]

Aquinas v Peter; Aquinas v Muhammad; and Peter v Muhammad were the toughest for me to decide. All 3 had such a monumental role in the development and expansion of religious thought for 2 of the heart world religions.

[vcczar]

1 hour ago, jvikings1 said:

Aquinas v Peter; Aquinas v Muhammad; and Peter v Muhammad were the toughest for me to decide. All 3 had such a monumental role in the development and expansion of religious thought for 2 of the heart world religions.

I'm kind of shocked that Muhammad isn't in the top tier and is in this tier ranking instead. Michael Hart wrote a book called "The 100" and makes a strong argument for Muhammad being #1, over Jesus and Isaac Newton. His argument was mainly based on 1) Christianity and Islam are close in size, but Islam's followers adhere to Muhammad more strictly than Christian's do to Christ. 2) Christianity, which Jesus probably wasn't even trying to create as a new religion, exists because of Paul, who spread Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. Without Paul, the author suggests Jesus would be known to history only has a leader of a sect of Judaism. 3) Muhammad created Islam and personally spread it, operating as a kind of theocratic ruler. He was Jesus, Paul, and Empire in one. 

Personally, I can see the argument for Muhammad, Jesus, or Newton being #1, but Hart's argument for Muhammad is pretty strong. Enough that Muhammad should be in a much higher tier than he currently is in. If he doesn't get raised up in this vote, it's probably due to some level of Islamophobia.  

[jvikings1]

55 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I'm kind of shocked that Muhammad isn't in the top tier and is in this tier ranking instead. Michael Hart wrote a book called "The 100" and makes a strong argument for Muhammad being #1, over Jesus and Isaac Newton. His argument was mainly based on 1) Christianity and Islam are close in size, but Islam's followers adhere to Muhammad more strictly than Christian's do to Christ. 2) Christianity, which Jesus probably wasn't even trying to create as a new religion, exists because of Paul, who spread Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. Without Paul, the author suggests Jesus would be known to history only has a leader of a sect of Judaism. 3) Muhammad created Islam and personally spread it, operating as a kind of theocratic ruler. He was Jesus, Paul, and Empire in one. 

Personally, I can see the argument for Muhammad, Jesus, or Newton being #1, but Hart's argument for Muhammad is pretty strong. Enough that Muhammad should be in a much higher tier than he currently is in. If he doesn't get raised up in this vote, it's probably due to some level of Islamophobia.  

Or people’s weakness in Middle Eastern history. Part of the reason I put Aquinas above Muhammad is because I am more knowledgeable on the full extents of Aquinas’s impact on history than Muhammad (ME history is a weakness of mine in the subject).

But even so, I would have ranked him higher than this level.

 

Also, one thing to note is that Christianity was spreading even before Saul/Paul’s conversion (see the Ethiopian official in Acts 8). I don’t buy the argument that it does out with him; however, the magnitude of its spread is certainly due to Paul’s influences in the Roman Empire (allowed in large part due to his Roman citizenship).

[vcczar]

12 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

(see the Ethiopian official in Acts 😎

Maybe it would have become some sort of African Judaism without Paul then. 

[vcczar]

@pilight I'm curious why you have Shakespeare and Leonardo as more influential to world history than Muhammad?

[vcczar]

Bumping this one back up over my CK3 post

[DakotaHale]

Muhammad being this low is weird

[vcczar]

@Vols21 Curious what your rationale is for ranking Leonardo da Vinci over Muhammad as being more influential to world history. 

[pilight]

7 hours ago, vcczar said:

@pilight I'm curious why you have Shakespeare and Leonardo as more influential to world history than Muhammad?

I'm not justifying my votes to you or anyone

[vcczar]

24 minutes ago, pilight said:

I'm not justifying my votes to you or anyone

I’m not needing justification. I’m just wanting to know you’re reasoning. 

[Vols21]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:29 PM, vcczar said:

@Vols21 Curious what your rationale is for ranking Leonardo da Vinci over Muhammad as being more influential to world history. 

first, I didn't base my decisions on books or other lists.  I used the synopsis you gave and independent research of names I might not have been as familiar with.   Wasn't needed in this case.   I looked at the inventions of Da Vinci who was ahead of his time on many items like the helicopter, parachutes, armored cars, and even robots and rated him above the Prophet Muhammed.   Yes the prophet spread the teachings of others like Moses, Abraham and even Jesus along with his creation and spread of Islam thru great Arabia often by conquest, but I rated Da Vinci's influences thru his art and inventions as having a larger impact on the world as a whole.

Since you mentioned Hart's book and his top 100, I looked it up and saw some of his flowery depictions of Muhammed.  I also saw Hart's critics and counter arguments that did not hold either in high esteem.   After checking Hart's list, I also reviewed a dozen other top 100 most influential lists just to get a feel for other viewpoints.  Some had Muhammed in their top 5, and some had him much lower (30-50).  Some had Da Vinci ranked in their top 10 and touted his gifts to the world for the reasoning (one said there was no reason not to rank him less than #1 for his inventions and art alone, but there was so much more).  One list published in the Guardian had Muhammed at #3 and Shakespeare at #4.   If they had both ranked that high, then I don't find it strange that some on here might have chosen Shakespeare over Muhammed (as I saw you ask someone else - or Da Vinci in my case).  In fact, I find it stranger that more people on the forum might not have ranked Muhammed lower as other historians have done in their lists for various reasons.   Maybe it was their fear of being singled out if they didn't go along with the groupthink?   I doubt that has been the case, but it cause some to pause going forward.    I will continue to vote each poll as I see it at that time - even if I'm the only person who votes a certain way.    I don't have a preconceived notion of who should be at the top or even in the top 10 and just curious how it all shakes out at the end especially with some of the strong biases I see which is all part of the great dynamic here.

I saw on one of the other threads someone questioning votes for Churchill over the great composers saying long after Winston's footnote in history is forgotten, people will still enjoy the music of Mozart and Beethoven, while the counter argument could be made that had Churchill not been successful in his "historical footnote" that none of us might have the freedoms to enjoy any kind music any more (or just what Hitler allowed).    That's the interesting part of polls like this, there can be different ways to evaluate each match-up.

[vcczar]

9 minutes ago, Vols21 said:

Da Vinci who was ahead of his time on many items like the helicopter, parachutes, armored cars, and even robots and rated him above the Prophet Muhammed.

Yeah, but these didn't lead to these inventions since they were lost in his notebooks for ages. So he didn't even influence the actual inventions of these things.