Groupthinking the Political Value (looking for feedback)

[MrPotatoTed]

Looking for feedback from our most experienced, detail-oriented players.

Hi all,

I'm taking a look at how Political Value is calculated.  The game has changed many times since that value was first created, and given that it doesn't just guide human players but also dictates what the AI does, it probably needs another look.

Off the top of my head, lackey is penalized way too much (like four times as much as any other trait, I think) and Kingmaker doesn't give enough of a PV bonus.  

My questions:

1)  What traits should give the biggest bonus, in your opinion?  Keep in mind we can't break this down by office, so it's not necessarily something that only helps in one area.  I'd learn towards giving the biggest bonuses to the traits that help the most overall, whatever those traits are.

2)  What traits should get the biggest penalty, in your opinion?

3)  Should PV change by office?  By which I mean being a Representative, Senator, cabinet member, President, etc would raise a politician's PV, and then losing that office would lower it.  

4)  Once we have the results of this little survey, anyone smarter than me want to use the results to actually update the formula?  I'm willing to do it, but I'm definitely not as much of an expert on excel formulas as some of you guys are.

Thanks all!

[Murrman104]

1: as a player the traits that effect whether I draft pols or choose them for leader or President are : Kingmaker, Charisma, Integrity, Debater,Ironfist and the absolute number 1 trait: Master Kingmaker 

And to a lesser extent - Orator, Leadership ,Likable, Provincial  Puritan and egghead/Everyman😠

 

2: Flipflopper/2Faced/Unlikable/Carpetbagger/Easily Overhwhelmed are close to deal breakers for most position's unless balanced out by the above good traits.

 

3: Yes imo, I think it would make more sense for the ai to choose a senator for a leader over an identical trait rando unemployed so giving them extra pv would accomplish that.

4: I can't do equations 😭

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Murrman104

[ShortKing]

I mostly agree with Murrman, I'll even go so far as to rank the traits I look for (with the caveat that combinations of traits will affect my choices):
Master Kingmaker, Kingmaker, Iron Fist, Charisma, Likable, Leadership, Debater, Orator, Puritan

The traits that that should deal the most damage to pv in order of most damaging to least:
Easily Overwhelmed, uncharismatic, unlikable, disharmonious, 2-faced, flip flopper, pliable, carpetbagger, lackey

If I'm being honest, I hardly even notice when a pol of mine has lackey, it rarely comes up in gameplay from my experience. 

I am not sure how difficult this would be to put in a formula, but I think it would be nice if losing an office could lower your PV but not by as much as never having had it at all. This is sort of accomplished by the rolls to lose obscure but I would think if you have two identical trait candidates for faction leader, one being the freshman rep from Idaho and one being the former Governor of California forced out by term limits, the pv formula should ideally take that into account. However, like I said, I am not a formula person so idk if that would even be doable. 

[vcczar]

2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Looking for feedback from our most experienced, detail-oriented players.

Hi all,

I'm taking a look at how Political Value is calculated.  The game has changed many times since that value was first created, and given that it doesn't just guide human players but also dictates what the AI does, it probably needs another look.

Off the top of my head, lackey is penalized way too much (like four times as much as any other trait, I think) and Kingmaker doesn't give enough of a PV bonus.  

My questions:

1)  What traits should give the biggest bonus, in your opinion?  Keep in mind we can't break this down by office, so it's not necessarily something that only helps in one area.  I'd learn towards giving the biggest bonuses to the traits that help the most overall, whatever those traits are.

2)  What traits should get the biggest penalty, in your opinion?

3)  Should PV change by office?  By which I mean being a Representative, Senator, cabinet member, President, etc would raise a politician's PV, and then losing that office would lower it.  

4)  Once we have the results of this little survey, anyone smarter than me want to use the results to actually update the formula?  I'm willing to do it, but I'm definitely not as much of an expert on excel formulas as some of you guys are.

Thanks all!

PV is probably going to be overhauled. I mentioned this maybe like a year ago. I've even considered doing without it and just leaving the values. 

[MrPotatoTed]

4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

PV is probably going to be overhauled. I mentioned this maybe like a year ago. I've even considered doing without it and just leaving the values. 

We definitely need PV, even in the actual computer game, because that's how the AI/CPU knows which politicians have higher potential/worth for things like stealing from other factions, putting forward for office, etc.

[MrPotatoTed]

8 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

I am not sure how difficult this would be to put in a formula, but I think it would be nice if losing an office could lower your PV but not by as much as never having had it at all. This is sort of accomplished by the rolls to lose obscure but I would think if you have two identical trait candidates for faction leader, one being the freshman rep from Idaho and one being the former Governor of California forced out by term limits, the pv formula should ideally take that into account. However, like I said, I am not a formula person so idk if that would even be doable. 

It's an interesting concept, but not doable with excel (at least, in the format we currently have it).  Plus, the way you word it, I think you are suggesting "former Gov of California forced out by term limits" should rank higher than "Freshman rep from Idaho."  But I'm not sure I'd rank them the same way. If that former Gov only has skill levels in governing, he's basically a dead man walking, while that Freshman rep from Idaho still has their whole life ahead of them. Haha.

[jnewt]

2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

1)  What traits should give the biggest bonus, in your opinion?  Keep in mind we can't break this down by office, so it's not necessarily something that only helps in one area.  I'd learn towards giving the biggest bonuses to the traits that help the most overall, whatever those traits are.

Kingmaker, Iron Fist, Leadership, Charisma, Debator, Orator

2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

2)  What traits should get the biggest penalty, in your opinion?

Pliable, incompetent, easily overwhelmed

2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

3)  Should PV change by office?  By which I mean being a Representative, Senator, cabinet member, President, etc would raise a politician's PV, and then losing that office would lower it. 

No, unless at some point PV will actually impact elections, passing legislation, or similar objectives, rather than just showing who's valuable or not

2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

4)  Once we have the results of this little survey, anyone smarter than me want to use the results to actually update the formula?  I'm willing to do it, but I'm definitely not as much of an expert on excel formulas as some of you guys are.

Sure

[Willthescout7]

3 minutes ago, vcczar said:

PV is probably going to be overhauled. I mentioned this maybe like a year ago. I've even considered doing without it and just leaving the values. 

I think PV needs to stay, unless CPU actions get overhauled. 

 

In general, I don't look at traits so I can't weigh in on those. I do agree that a way to reflect offices held would be helpful.

How The Political Process assigns points to offices would be a starting point. The change here, and where SK and I are in agreement is in making a pol lose some value when they leave that office but not all of it. 

 

Another idea that just came to me: what if there was an Elder Stateman trait? No one starts with this, but essentially you get points for your career. Accrue enough points, you get that trait. That trait is what bumps up their political value for offices. It can do other things as well in different phases but also reflect the game. 

[MrPotatoTed]

Just now, Willthescout7 said:

I think PV needs to stay, unless CPU actions get overhauled. 

 

In general, I don't look at traits so I can't weigh in on those. I do agree that a way to reflect offices held would be helpful.

How The Political Process assigns points to offices would be a starting point. The change here, and where SK and I are in agreement is in making a pol lose some value when they leave that office but not all of it. 

 

Another idea that just came to me: what if there was an Elder Stateman trait? No one starts with this, but essentially you get points for your career. Accrue enough points, you get that trait. That trait is what bumps up their political value for offices. It can do other things as well in different phases but also reflect the game. 

Interesting idea on elder statesmen.  I remember reading Obama’s autobiography, and he references seeking Al Gore’s permission…not endorsement, but permission…to run for President.  Not that Al Gore could have literally stopped him; but having Gore’s blessing was important at the time as a party elder.

 

[Murrman104]

Considering the kingmaker trait can come from being in a leadership position in Congress or a faction leader/former faction leader that would seem to serve as a headcannon Elder Statesman trait to me

Edited February 8, 2023 by Murrman104

[Willthescout7]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Interesting idea on elder statesmen.  I remember reading Obama’s autobiography, and he references seeking Al Gore’s permission…not endorsement, but permission…to run for President.  Not that Al Gore could have literally stopped him; but having Gore’s blessing was important at the time as a party elder.

 

Maybe an Elder Statesman could get a bonus during conventions/primaries.

They could also have a better shot at becoming faction leader. 

[Willthescout7]

4 minutes ago, Murrman104 said:

Considering the kingmaker trait can come from being in a leadership position in Congress or a faction leader/former faction leader that would seem to serve as a headcannon Elder Statesman trait to me

But it doesn't have to. Al Percy is a kingmaker and he hasn't done a thing other than not secede in 1840.

Elder Stateman would denote a long career

[MrPotatoTed]

17 minutes ago, Murrman104 said:

Considering the kingmaker trait can come from being in a leadership position in Congress or a faction leader/former faction leader that would seem to serve as a headcannon Elder Statesman trait to me

Yeah, there's definitely a wide variety of ways to earn Kingmaker, but most (not all) involve likely having served in office for quite some time.  So while I think party elder is a cool concept, I'm not 100% sure how one would get it or what it would do that is especially different from kingmaker/master kingmaker.

[Willthescout7]

11 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Yeah, there's definitely a wide variety of ways to earn Kingmaker, but most (not all) involve likely having served in office for quite some time.  So while I think party elder is a cool concept, I'm not 100% sure how one would get it or what it would do that is especially different from kingmaker/master kingmaker.

Realistically, not much. It would give bonuses of some sort during presidential elections.

But mainly it would play a part in party/faction leader elections.

Other than that, it would just be a neat stat to track.

[ebrk85]

1) I pretty much am in agreement with what SK and Murrman posted

2)  Same as above except I'l add Incompetent as maybe the worst. That one's a career killer.

3)  Absolutely. As someone else mentioned if the CPU is using PV to select let's say faction leader. A Senator should have a PV boost over an unemployed pol.  As far as losing only some PV when no longer holding that office I am not completely opposed. But for the sake of recalculating the formula in the excel sheets that concept would be way above my formula making skill level.

4)  I can do it if it involves a formula similar to the format of the one currently in use but updated from the input in this thread. If it involves something like mentioned in 3 above I'm out lol.

[Ich_bin_Tyler]

From a quick read, I have nothing else to add and generally agree with others on the issue. I am in favor of keeping PV because the CPU does rely on it for some key decisions.

[10centjimmy]

1. I'd agree with Murrman and SK but I would include the technical boosts as well: Crisis Manager, Crisis Admin, Crisis Gov, Bookkeeper,  Geostrategist, Jurisprudence, Domestic Warrior. Egghead, Everyman, and Lawful should also be seen as high quality traits too.

2. As noted in previous posts, I would include the opposite traits from my 1st response: native Strategist, numberfudger, domestic Apathy, illicit. Passive is by far my least favorite trait and I would almost prevent a person with passive to even gain leadership. It's so worthless. 

3. Yes agree that active office holders should have higher pv. VP, House Leadership,  Senate Leadership, Senator, Governor, big4 Cabinet office, former president, SC, rep, Generals/ Admirals by seniority, remaining cabinet officials.

4. Like ebrk85 said, probably not up for a tracking mechanism that determines values of previous office holders. what happens if you're a former Rep + former ambassador + former General?

Edited February 8, 2023 by 10centjimmy

[jnewt]

17 minutes ago, ebrk85 said:

3)  Absolutely. As someone else mentioned if the CPU is using PV to select let's say faction leader. A Senator should have a PV boost over an unemployed pol.  As far as losing only some PV when no longer holding that office I am not completely opposed. But for the sake of recalculating the formula in the excel sheets that concept would be way above my formula making skill level.

The formula for including former offices wouldn’t be too involved, the real hassle would be coming up with a cleaner way to track previous offices. If we went this route, I would recommend adding another row to the faction spreadsheets that track previous offices, in addition to current offices. But this would really clunk the spreadsheets up. 

[vcczar]

@MrPotatoTed one thing that you may need to factor in is that I am going to be changing what some of the traits do. I was thinking about this a week ago. I'll try to issue those changes to everyone on Friday. 

[MrPotatoTed]

53 minutes ago, vcczar said:

@MrPotatoTed one thing that you may need to factor in is that I am going to be changing what some of the traits do. I was thinking about this a week ago. I'll try to issue those changes to everyone on Friday. 

That’s good to know.  We’ll definitely wait until you finish that then.

As far as my own feedback, I think incompetent should probably be the biggest penalty to PV

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That’s good to know.  We’ll definitely wait until you finish that then.

As far as my own feedback, I think incompetent should probably be the biggest penalty to PV

I think that might already be the case, but I'm unsure as I haven't looked in ages. 

[MrPotatoTed]

4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I think that might already be the case, but I'm unsure as I haven't looked in ages. 

I feel like someone may have changed the formula at some point after you did the original, but I could be wrong.  Either way, it’s definitely tracking “lackey” as the worst trait.  Having lackey gives you a negative PV no matter what other traits you have, even though it’s actually not that bad.

[ebrk85]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

I feel like someone may have changed the formula at some point after you did the original, but I could be wrong.  Either way, it’s definitely tracking “lackey” as the worst trait.  Having lackey gives you a negative PV no matter what other traits you have, even though it’s actually not that bad.

Yea honestly I feel like that it just a typo error in the formula. And since we all just keep sharing the existing sheets when starting a new playtest it's spread all over.

[ebrk85]

Ha Lackey is pulling a -53, Incompetent -20 and the rest of the bad traits -5 or-10 it looks like.  I'm guessing Lackey is supposed to be -5 not -53!

[vcczar]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

I feel like someone may have changed the formula at some point after you did the original, but I could be wrong.  Either way, it’s definitely tracking “lackey” as the worst trait.  Having lackey gives you a negative PV no matter what other traits you have, even though it’s actually not that bad.

That must be a typo then, because I wouldn't make lackey the worst trait purposely. Either I made the typo or something got adjusted. Maybe it happened when I added new traits. 

I'm also remembering that values I gave to Anthony might differ from those in the spreadsheet slightly. I think I made some last moment changes since I go through a "final draft" of the rules when I type out the emails to Anthony. However, since I think he's basically going to remake the draft phase, I'll give him our updated calculations. Just remind me on Friday morning if I forget. I don't think I will. Hopefully, I can get to them sooner. I'm almost done grading these damn papers and should finally be done today.