Revamping Politician Value

[10centjimmy]

• 1 Command Ability +25
• 1 Legislative Ability +15
• 1 Governing Ability +10
• 1 Military Ability +7
• 1 Judicial Ability +5
• 1 Administrative Ability +10
• 1 Expertise +2
• 1 Interest (ex. RW Activist, LW Activist, etc) +5
• Celebrity +15
• Charisma +7
• Debater +7
• Disharmonious -7
• Easily Overwhelmed -25
• Efficient +7
• Egghead +5
• Frail -10
• Integrity +7
• Iron Fist +15
• Kingmaker +15
• Leadership +7
• Likable +5
• Manipulative +7
• Military Leader +3
• Orator +7
• Pliable -10
• Propagandist +10
• Puritan +3
• Controversial -10
• Teflon +1
• Uncharismatic -10
• Unlikable -10
• Hale +10
• Cosmopolitan +3
• Provincial +3
• Lackey -20
• Magician +5
• Bookkeeper +10
• Numberfudger -3
• Geostrategist +10
• Naive Strategist -3
• Domestic Warrior +10
• Harmonious +3
• Everyman +5
• Incoherent -20
• Incompetent -20
• Delegator +1
• Micromanager +1
• Obscure -15
• Two-faced -10
• Flipflopper -25
• Passive -25
• Predictable -1
• Lawful/Cop +10
• Illicit -3
• Domestic Apathy -3
• Late Bloomer -1
• Overeager +1
• Jurisprudence +10
• Crisis Manager +25
• Crisis Gov +5
• Crisis Admin +10
• Decisive General +3
• Master Kingmaker +25
• Carperbagger +1
• Union Loyalist +10

[vcczar]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:20 PM, MrPotatoTed said:

• Late Bloomer (I don't think this actually does anything in the middle of a game, does it?)
• Overeager (same)

It doesn't do anything outside of Career Track

[vcczar]

i've started working with your figures. It's going to take my some time to build a few models. For now I'm just typing in your feedback into a spreadsheet and will then work with that. 

[vcczar]

I've finally finished typing all of these into the spreadsheet. I probably won't get around to making a model until Friday (tomorrow). 

[vcczar]

Alright, so I have it set up now so that I can build a few models, but I'll present this ranking system for today, and then work on the others later. 

Here are the politician values for these politicians at the draft. This figure is how their ratings would look if we don't use a 0-100 rating or any other sort of curve.:

Full Name	Updated Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	341
Thomas Jefferson	201
Henry Clay	197
Theodore Roosevelt	184
Franklin D Roosevelt	171
Lyndon B Johnson	170
Andrew Jackson	166
Benjamin Franklin	161
Abraham Lincoln	152
George Washington	144
James G Blaine	130
John Quincy Adams	79
Donald Trump	72
Joe Biden	50
Hulk Hogan	0
John F Kennedy Jr	-5
Peggy Eaton	-7
Francis Scott Key	-7
William Temple Franklin	-7
George Santos	-10
John Adams II	-14
Charles Adams	-14
Braxton Bragg	-30
John Payne Todd	-34

I really don't like having negative numbers. So I'm considering figuring out what the lowest possible # is someone could get and then using that as a base for zero. I then wants to see what the highest possible number is for someone and possibly create some sort of cap. I'll then need to figure out roughly what an average politician is. I'll create a few different kinds of models. 

Anyway, this is model #1, which I think was @MrPotatoTed's preference. 

Will tag others @ConservativeElector2 @Cal @OrangeP47 @ShortKing @10centjimmy @Murrman104 @jnewt

[Willthescout7]

I don't hate it

[OrangeP47]

I don't hate it either. Honestly, if we ignore Napoleon (which there's argument we can), that's almost already a good 0-200 scale if you keep the negatives.  We could keep Napoleon having a super high value as a nice shock value for the playthroughs when he actually does show up.  I can understand not wanting negative numbers, but personally I think it's fine.  One alternative idea:  Have the negative numbers "behind the scenes", but code the actual game to just display a 0 to the player.  That actually would be trivially easy to do coding wise, would accomplish what you want aesthetically, but actually *really* help the AI.

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

I don't hate it either. Honestly, if we ignore Napoleon (which there's argument we can), that's almost already a good 0-200 scale if you keep the negatives.  We could keep Napoleon having a super high value as a nice shock value for the playthroughs when he actually does show up.  I can understand not wanting negative numbers, but personally I think it's fine.  One alternative idea:  Have the negative numbers "behind the scenes", but code the actual game to just display a 0 to the player.  That actually would be trivially easy to do coding wise, would accomplish what you want aesthetically, but actually *really* help the AI.

I'll build some other models and then we can vote. I won't have time to do so until maybe Monday though. 

[jnewt]

Are Napoleon and Thomas Jefferson the top two in the game? If so, then this seems pretty reasonable to me. I’m surprised to see Napoleon so high, but if Jefferson is in fact number two, then it seems pretty reasonable already. 
 

Also, it doesn’t seem like anybody else would support this, but I think it’d be really fun if users couldn’t see the political value, and it was strictly used by the computer. Personally, I think people have been placing too much importance on PV during the playtests. I get that it’s necessary for non-human actions, though. 

[vcczar]

Just now, jnewt said:

Are Napoleon and Thomas Jefferson the top two in the game? If so, then this seems pretty reasonable to me. I’m surprised to see Napoleon so high, but if Jefferson is in fact number two, then it seems pretty reasonable already. 
 

Also, it doesn’t seem like anybody else would support this, but I think it’d be really fun if users couldn’t see the political value, and it was strictly used by the computer. Personally, I think people have been placing too much importance on PV during the playtests. I get that it’s necessary for non-human actions, though. 

Yeah, they are. 

Napoleon is the highest in the game mainly because he can't really join the US until he's been Emperor and sent to St Helena. Napoleon starts with a lot of command and military. He is basically born with leadership. He has charisma, iron fist, etc. Historically speaking, Napoleon is probably the most impressive figure in Western Civilization of which we have sufficient data. 

You have specialists like Einstein, Newton, Shakespeare, but Napoleon--no matter if one likes him or not--was easily the greatest military leader---taking part as the top commander in 60+ major battles (the next highest is like half of that), losing only like 3 to 5. He is also a top 10 statesman--being somewhat an original thinker (enlightened despot), but also probably having the greatest work ethic of anyone in human history. If he had been a US politician instead of French during that time, he'd be running circles around Jefferson and Hamilton. He was a whirlwind. 

One of my favorite stories is that he went to almost all of the debates to create the Napoleonic Code. He would wait patiently for like 12 hour or more---sometimes up to 15 or 18 hours. He would wait until the legislators were thoroughly fatigued, and his memory was so good, he could recall what they had said point by point. So he would wear them down in debate when they hadn't the energy or desire to keep up the debate. In short, Napoleon got the code he wanted. Ultimately, he would be in the position to make every single policy decision. He obviously had some flaws, but I think his core is accurate. There hasn't been anyone like him from 1774 to the present in politics or military--at least not one that had the opportunity to showcase their ability. Napoleon existed at what was probably the best moment for him and then he reformed the nation to best fit himself personally. This said, had I lived during Napoleon's time, I'd probaby get exiled for being a critic of him--at least once he declared himself Emperor.  

[Murrman104]

4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Yeah, they are. 

Napoleon is the highest in the game mainly because he can't really join the US until he's been Emperor and sent to St Helena. Napoleon starts with a lot of command and military. He is basically born with leadership. He has charisma, iron fist, etc. Historically speaking, Napoleon is probably the most impressive figure in Western Civilization of which we have sufficient data. 

You have specialists like Einstein, Newton, Shakespeare, but Napoleon--no matter if one likes him or not--was easily the greatest military leader---taking part as the top commander in 60+ major battles (the next highest is like half of that), losing only like 3 to 5. He is also a top 10 statesman--being somewhat an original thinker (enlightened despot), but also probably having the greatest work ethic of anyone in human history. If he had been a US politician instead of French during that time, he'd be running circles around Jefferson and Hamilton. He was a whirlwind. 

One of my favorite stories is that he went to almost all of the debates to create the Napoleonic Code. He would wait patiently for like 12 hour or more---sometimes up to 15 or 18 hours. He would wait until the legislators were thoroughly fatigued, and his memory was so good, he could recall what they had said point by point. So he would wear them down in debate when they hadn't the energy or desire to keep up the debate. In short, Napoleon got the code he wanted. Ultimately, he would be in the position to make every single policy decision. He obviously had some flaws, but I think his core is accurate. There hasn't been anyone like him from 1774 to the present in politics or military--at least not one that had the opportunity to showcase their ability. Napoleon existed at what was probably the best moment for him and then he reformed the nation to best fit himself personally. This said, had I lived during Napoleon's time, I'd probaby get exiled for being a critic of him--at least once he declared himself Emperor.  

Hate to be off topic but do you know any good books on Napolean? , I've been trying for years to find one but the ones ive read have been really unsatisfying

[vcczar]

Just now, Murrman104 said:

Hate to be off topic but do you know any good books on Napolean? , I've been trying for years to find one but the ones ive read have been really unsatisfying

I've read like 35 books on Napoleon. It depends what you are focusing on. If you want a book that covers Napoleon without a specific focus, then I recommend Alan Schom's book, which I think is just called Napoleon. If you want a book focusing on Napoleon's military career, then Owen Connolly's Blunder to Glory. I think those are the best books. I also recommend the Maxims of Napoleon. Then there's a lot of good books that are more specific to isolated moments of his life, which I'd recommend. I'd start with these three. 

[Murrman104]

 

Just now, vcczar said:

I've read like 35 books on Napoleon. It depends what you are focusing on. If you want a book that covers Napoleon without a specific focus, then I recommend Alan Schom's book, which I think is just called Napoleon. If you want a book focusing on Napoleon's military career, then Owen Connolly's Blunder to Glory. I think those are the best books. I also recommend the Maxims of Napoleon. Then there's a lot of good books that are more specific to isolated moments of his life, which I'd recommend. I'd start with these three. 

perfect ill check out Schom's one, I've been reading a few books on other figures of this period, and having such a shallow knowledge of Napolean has made it aggravating 

[vcczar]

The highest possible PV is 648. The lowest is -79. 

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

The highest possible PV is 648. The lowest is -79. 

The thing is realistically I don't think a pol would ever hit that though so it's probably fine.

[vcczar]

Here's model 2 with model 1 

The new model (yellow) has the highest possible % as a 1.00 and lowest possible % as a 0. 

Full Name	As a Percent of the best	Updated Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	0.613154961	341
Thomas Jefferson	0.4570791527	201
Henry Clay	0.4526198439	197
Theodore Roosevelt	0.4381270903	184
Franklin D Roosevelt	0.4236343367	171
Lyndon B Johnson	0.4225195095	170
Andrew Jackson	0.4180602007	166
Benjamin Franklin	0.4124860647	161
Abraham Lincoln	0.4024526198	152
George Washington	0.3935340022	144
James G Blaine	0.3779264214	130
John Quincy Adams	0.3210702341	79
Donald Trump	0.3132664437	72
Joe Biden	0.2887402453	50
Hulk Hogan	0.2329988852	0
John F Kennedy Jr	0.2274247492	-5
Peggy Eaton	0.2251950948	-7
Francis Scott Key	0.2251950948	-7
William Temple Franklin	0.2251950948	-7
George Santos	0.2218506132	-10
John Adams II	0.2173913043	-14
Charles Adams	0.2173913043	-14
Braxton Bragg	0.1995540691	-30
John Payne Todd	0.1950947603	-34
Lowest Possible	0	-209
Highest Possible	1	688

[ShortKing]

1 minute ago, vcczar said:

Here's model 2 with model 1 

The new model (yellow) has the highest possible % as a 1.00 and lowest possible % as a 0. 

 

Full Name	As a Percent of the best	Updated Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	0.613154961	341
Thomas Jefferson	0.4570791527	201
Henry Clay	0.4526198439	197
Theodore Roosevelt	0.4381270903	184
Franklin D Roosevelt	0.4236343367	171
Lyndon B Johnson	0.4225195095	170
Andrew Jackson	0.4180602007	166
Benjamin Franklin	0.4124860647	161
Abraham Lincoln	0.4024526198	152
George Washington	0.3935340022	144
James G Blaine	0.3779264214	130
John Quincy Adams	0.3210702341	79
Donald Trump	0.3132664437	72
Joe Biden	0.2887402453	50
Hulk Hogan	0.2329988852	0
John F Kennedy Jr	0.2274247492	-5
Peggy Eaton	0.2251950948	-7
Francis Scott Key	0.2251950948	-7
William Temple Franklin	0.2251950948	-7
George Santos	0.2218506132	-10
John Adams II	0.2173913043	-14
Charles Adams	0.2173913043	-14
Braxton Bragg	0.1995540691	-30
John Payne Todd	0.1950947603	-34
Lowest Possible	0	-209
Highest Possible	1	688

what would the yellow model show to players, if anything?

[vcczar]

3 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

what would the yellow model show to players, if anything?

I think 0/100

JFK would be a 23

Biden would be a 29

Trump a 31

JQ Adams a 32

Lincoln a 40

Jefferson a 46

Napoleon a 61

 

[OrangeP47]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I think 0/100

JFK would be a 23

Biden would be a 29

Trump a 31

JQ Adams a 32

Lincoln a 40

Jefferson a 46

Napoleon a 61

 

Okay, glad I reserved judgement. That's fine too.

[vcczar]

Here's another one: 

• Orange % of Napoleon (0.745= 75)
• Yellow % of the best possible (0.613 = 61)
• Pink with no 0-100 scale
• Green is old system

Full Name	As % of Napoleon	As a Percent of the best	Updated Draft Value	Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	1	0.613154961	341	120.5
Thomas Jefferson	0.7454545455	0.4570791527	201	55.5
Henry Clay	0.7381818182	0.4526198439	197	70
Theodore Roosevelt	0.7145454545	0.4381270903	184	69.5
Franklin D Roosevelt	0.6909090909	0.4236343367	171	57
Lyndon B Johnson	0.6890909091	0.4225195095	170	53.5
Andrew Jackson	0.6818181818	0.4180602007	166	57.5
Benjamin Franklin	0.6727272727	0.4124860647	161	70
Abraham Lincoln	0.6563636364	0.4024526198	152	59
George Washington	0.6418181818	0.3935340022	144	58.5
James G Blaine	0.6163636364	0.3779264214	130	51
John Quincy Adams	0.5236363636	0.3210702341	79	53
Donald Trump	0.5109090909	0.3132664437	72	17.5
Joe Biden	0.4709090909	0.2887402453	50	16.5
Hulk Hogan	0.38	0.2329988852	0	-2.5
John F Kennedy Jr	0.3709090909	0.2274247492	-5	-4
Peggy Eaton	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
Francis Scott Key	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
William Temple Franklin	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
George Santos	0.3618181818	0.2218506132	-10	-2
John Adams II	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Charles Adams	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Braxton Bragg	0.3254545455	0.1995540691	-30	-4.5
John Payne Todd	0.3181818182	0.1950947603	-34	-7
Lowest Possible	0	0	-209	-61
Highest Possible	1.630909091	1	688	235.5

[10centjimmy]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Here's another one: 

• Orange % of Napoleon (0.745= 75)
• Yellow % of the best possible (0.613 = 61)
• Pink with no 0-100 scale
• Green is old system

 

 

Full Name	As % of Napoleon	As a Percent of the best	Updated Draft Value	Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	1	0.613154961	341	120.5
Thomas Jefferson	0.7454545455	0.4570791527	201	55.5
Henry Clay	0.7381818182	0.4526198439	197	70
Theodore Roosevelt	0.7145454545	0.4381270903	184	69.5
Franklin D Roosevelt	0.6909090909	0.4236343367	171	57
Lyndon B Johnson	0.6890909091	0.4225195095	170	53.5
Andrew Jackson	0.6818181818	0.4180602007	166	57.5
Benjamin Franklin	0.6727272727	0.4124860647	161	70
Abraham Lincoln	0.6563636364	0.4024526198	152	59
George Washington	0.6418181818	0.3935340022	144	58.5
James G Blaine	0.6163636364	0.3779264214	130	51
John Quincy Adams	0.5236363636	0.3210702341	79	53
Donald Trump	0.5109090909	0.3132664437	72	17.5
Joe Biden	0.4709090909	0.2887402453	50	16.5
Hulk Hogan	0.38	0.2329988852	0	-2.5
John F Kennedy Jr	0.3709090909	0.2274247492	-5	-4
Peggy Eaton	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
Francis Scott Key	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
William Temple Franklin	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
George Santos	0.3618181818	0.2218506132	-10	-2
John Adams II	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Charles Adams	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Braxton Bragg	0.3254545455	0.1995540691	-30	-4.5
John Payne Todd	0.3181818182	0.1950947603	-34	-7
Lowest Possible	0	0	-209	-61
Highest Possible	1.630909091	1	688	235.5

If this is the formula, I kind of like the optics on the Napoleon =1 the best.  

[OrangeP47]

Orange could be fine too, and IMO would probably be preferable to Yellow, on the condition that it's possible to go "over" 100%, which from a coding perspective is trivial to do so that wouldn't be a problem.

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

Orange could be fine too, and IMO would probably be preferable to Yellow, on the condition that it's possible to go "over" 100%, which from a coding perspective is trivial to do so that wouldn't be a problem.

It would be because I have nothing in there preventing that. If someone becomes stronger than Napoleon, they could be, say, a 138. 

[ShortKing]

5 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Here's another one: 

• Orange % of Napoleon (0.745= 75)
• Yellow % of the best possible (0.613 = 61)
• Pink with no 0-100 scale
• Green is old system

 

 

Full Name	As % of Napoleon	As a Percent of the best	Updated Draft Value	Draft Value
Napoleon Bonaparte	1	0.613154961	341	120.5
Thomas Jefferson	0.7454545455	0.4570791527	201	55.5
Henry Clay	0.7381818182	0.4526198439	197	70
Theodore Roosevelt	0.7145454545	0.4381270903	184	69.5
Franklin D Roosevelt	0.6909090909	0.4236343367	171	57
Lyndon B Johnson	0.6890909091	0.4225195095	170	53.5
Andrew Jackson	0.6818181818	0.4180602007	166	57.5
Benjamin Franklin	0.6727272727	0.4124860647	161	70
Abraham Lincoln	0.6563636364	0.4024526198	152	59
George Washington	0.6418181818	0.3935340022	144	58.5
James G Blaine	0.6163636364	0.3779264214	130	51
John Quincy Adams	0.5236363636	0.3210702341	79	53
Donald Trump	0.5109090909	0.3132664437	72	17.5
Joe Biden	0.4709090909	0.2887402453	50	16.5
Hulk Hogan	0.38	0.2329988852	0	-2.5
John F Kennedy Jr	0.3709090909	0.2274247492	-5	-4
Peggy Eaton	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
Francis Scott Key	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
William Temple Franklin	0.3672727273	0.2251950948	-7	-2
George Santos	0.3618181818	0.2218506132	-10	-2
John Adams II	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Charles Adams	0.3545454545	0.2173913043	-14	-3.5
Braxton Bragg	0.3254545455	0.1995540691	-30	-4.5
John Payne Todd	0.3181818182	0.1950947603	-34	-7
Lowest Possible	0	0	-209	-61
Highest Possible	1.630909091	1	688	235.5

I personally am a fan of precision, especially insofar as it pertains to giving players the most information possible to work with, so if we are going to display these values to human players, my first choice is honestly pink, but if we are just creating formulas to display PV to ai only, then I think orange or yellow work fine

[Willthescout7]

I prefer pink personally