If the Founding Fathers Returned

[vcczar]

Let's say the Founding Fathers were transported to 2023. They were caught up on US history, current events, and were eligible to vote. Who do they vote for? 

[ShortKing]

Not gonna pretend I'm enough of an expert on some of these individuals to hold these views strongly, but given Trump's blatant disregard and open hostility to the institutions and guardrails put in place to frustrate the aims of would-be despots, I'd like to believe none of our Founding Fathers would view voting for Trump as a feasible option. 

[vcczar]

11 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

Not gonna pretend I'm enough of an expert on some of these individuals to hold these views strongly, but given Trump's blatant disregard and open hostility to the institutions and guardrails put in place to frustrate the aims of would-be despots, I'd like to believe none of our Founding Fathers would view voting for Trump as a feasible option. 

Yeah, this is my belief too, for the most part. However, I think Benedict Arnold might undermine the nation for Russia or China. I think George Mason is the only one listed that would consider Trump a lesser evil than a 21st century centralized government. 

I think the Founding Fathers would put all the MAGA leaders to a firing squad after Jan 6th. They'd pardon the followers. 

[10centjimmy]

The only one I was on the fence was Hamilton, who i think would have a positive view of hyper centralization of authority in the Executive.  But! He would only share his tacit support through a series of letters under a pseudonym.

[10centjimmy]

Also this feverish push against the word "woke" feels the same as the anger against the "Liberal" label in the 80s and 90s. Just another shiny thing for republican leaders to show off in an effort to gin up anger at the other. Tribal nonsense.

If by "woke" one believes that the county is stronger for its diversity of experiences and views, and that we should recognize its problems and come together to find positive solutions, then I'm guilty and woke. Anything else is just noise to distract the easily confused.  

Edited March 27, 2023 by 10centjimmy

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, 10centjimmy said:

Also this feverish push against the word "woke" feels the same as the anger against the "Liberal" label in the 80s and 90s. Just another shiny thing for republican leaders to show off in an effort to gin up anger at the other. Tribal nonsense.

If by "woke" one believes that the county is stronger for its diversity of experiences and views, and that we should recognize its problems and come together to find positive solutions, then I'm guilty and woke. Anything else is just noise to distract the easily confused.  

I agree with you completely. 

[vcczar]

@DakotaHale I can see an argument for all of your choices except for Washington, Franklin, and Paine. The first two were probably "Stability First" policy-wise. I think anything resembling a coup would cause them to bolt from a ideology. I really can't concieve of Franklin preferring MAGA even if Jan 6th never happened. 

Paine was an extreme liberal. While he would support coups and radical action, it would have to be pushed by a social liberalism. He wasn't an anti-government radical. He's the type that would support a coup by AOC or Ilhan Omar. 

I think Burr accepts MAGA only if he's leading it or feels like he'll be able to lead it at some point. 

Patrick Henry actually joined the Federalist Party because of Jacobin extremism. He might be a MAGA that switches to Biden after Jan 6th. 

I think the main repellant for the Founding Fathers, and maybe for many independents and moderates are two things. 1) MAGA is led by Trump. 2) The Capitol was stormed by MAGA supporters. If neither of these two things were true--if MAGA was led by a Ronald Reagan figure---joyful, optimistic person that doesn't try to take all the credit for everything, then Republicans would be in a much better place. However, I think MAGA is fueled by anger, hatred, and a sort of white male superiority that's really a cover for insecurity. That leader really can't be anyone other than a Trump. So it's doomed to fail. Only reason it got in office in 2016 is because Hillary Clinton was the alternative. 99% of the rest of Democrats would have won that election. 

[DakotaHale]

I wouldn’t be so sure. Trump certainly has a belief closer to theirs when it comes to free speech, firearm rights, and tariffs, all big issues in 2020 and 1800. I also see Ben Franklin touting a MAGA hat as a big troll.

George Washington wears a MA hat. A large part of the group is outraged that women and negroes are voting, and is Biden’s VP. Sam Adams sues the Boston Beer Company and wins — only to run the business into the ground. Some of them vote for Trump because they think Q-Anon/deep state = anti-Freemason. People mistake Benedict Arnold for the 1st President of the US. This forum has a thread with its highest post count ever. Washington uses his military position to send horses, black powder, and bayonets to Ukraine. John Hancock fills out a paper ballot wrong and it gets tossed. John Adams starts an account here. 

[Edouard]

2 hours ago, vcczar said:

Let's say the Founding Fathers were transported to 2023. They were caught up on US history, current events, and were eligible to vote. Who do they vote for? 

Almost all would vote for Biden over Trump

Romney on the other side it would be much more divided

What leads me is the institutionnal question, Trump clearly challenged the institutionnal structure of the United States so most of these people would certainly be anti-Trump but not forcelly democrats that's my point.

2 things are important to take into account, they were intellectual elites made of a lot of liberalist thinkings, but they also were in the XVIIIth century society. It's hard to imagine how they would have evolved with their society, the most societal progressives of that time were in France where lawmakers abolished all religious crimes by 1791 but the american political class was much more religious, so Thomas Jefferson, despite having terribly conservative positions for nowadays and even conservative when compared to french revolutionnaries could be societally progressive nowadays.

Only one thing I am certain, Washington would remain unaffiliated, and I bet that Lincoln would be democrat, but I don't know if Truman would still be democrat nowaday (more Truman than Kennedy).

Andrew Jakson would certainly love Trump and the first democratic president could have become a MAGA supporter but he was not particulary fond of US institutions unlike the founding fathers who for a very important part were liberal elites.

I do see Hamilton a democrat definitively as of 2023. A lot of Hamilton positions even for his time align with the current democratic party. But for several others who lived in their society of the end of the XVIIIth century it's very hard to predict.

Lafayette however would definitively be a Democrat. Third way democrat like Clinton. If you pay attention to the rest of his political life he was moderate monarchist (1789-1815) but after french restauration he progressively became a left-wing opponent to Louis XVIII and Charles X and by 1830 he was almost the republican candidate, there really was a time where France was between president Lafayette backed by republicans and king Louis Philippe I backed by deputies, Lafayette had become republican by the end of his life, influenced by the United States experience.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Edouard

[Euri]

What I’m hearing is John Adams becomes an AMPU playtester

[Pringles]

2 hours ago, ShortKing said:

Not gonna pretend I'm enough of an expert on some of these individuals to hold these views strongly, but given Trump's blatant disregard and open hostility to the institutions and guardrails put in place to frustrate the aims of would-be despots, I'd like to believe none of our Founding Fathers would view voting for Trump as a feasible option. 

I agree with this. I can't really speculate on a lot of people here. On one hand you could tell them how society has rapidly changed and tell them the GOP is the party of "traditional values," which even then is a stretch given the time period these individuals lived in. However, tell them Trump and his cult assaulted the Capitol, I'm sure most of them would be like yeah, not voting for that guy. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Pringles

[Pringles]

I'm sure most have seen the MAGA chaos at Waco, however, I present to you the latest of what the "woke left" is up to... 😛 I have worn this "digital blackface" many times since I post a lot of Steve Harvey gifs, among others... 🙄

 

 

 

 

[Edouard]

Yes I saw that @Pringles and actually this scares me off

When I was younger I was angry about how wokes were hijacking the progressive movement.

But now I am more afraid by the way every hatefull person can use trivial stuffs to fight against liberalism and societal progressivism.

Like it is okay to have cartoon characters who are LGBT or a kiss in a disney movie or add some more black people in roles that are not already known as whites.

It is not okay to put girls in the lost boys of Peter Pan or switch Tinker Bell (I think no one would have complained if they hired black children in the lost boys instead).

They did the same in the Last of Us serie, and this feeds the ones who are obssessed with culture war who ends up assimilating everyone to these examples.

Wokes are for me what MAGA are for you, they hijack the real points of a movement.

[Pringles]

1 minute ago, Edouard said:

Yes I saw that @Pringles and actually this scares me off

When I was younger I was angry about how wokes were hijacking the progressive movement.

But now I am more afraid by the way every hatefull person can use trivial stuffs to fight against liberalism and societal progressivism.

Like it is okay to have cartoon characters who are LGBT or a kiss in a disney movie or add some more black people in roles that are not already known as whites.

It is not okay to put girls in the lost boys of Peter Pan or switch Tinker Bell (I think no one would have complained if they hired black children in the lost boys instead).

They did the same in the Last of Us serie, and this feeds the ones who are obssessed with culture war who ends up assimilating everyone to these examples.

Wokes are for me what MAGA are for you, they hijack the real points of a movement.

I'm ready to see Mark Wahlberg as Muhammad Ali. More diversity! 😛