CE2's 1812 Election

[ConservativeElector2]

Happy voting!

@Beetlejuice @Cal @Cenzonico @ConservativeElector2 @DakotaHale @Dobs @Edouard @Entrecampos @Eugene @Fbarbarossa @Hestia @jnewt @JohnGRobertsJr @jvikings1 @kelley05v42774750 @Kitten @Magnus Rex @Mishfox @MrPotatoTed @NYRepublican @Patine @pFzCXDHANyh @pilight @Pringles @Rezi @Rodja @Sean F Kennedy @SilentLiberty @The Blood @themiddlepolitical @Timur @TZMB @vcczar @Wiw @WVProgressive @Zenobiyl 

[vcczar]

Randolph as a VP is enough for me to not vote for Monroe. Randolph would be a disastrous president. 

[Hestia]

13 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Randolph as a VP is enough for me to not vote for Monroe. Randolph would be a disastrous president. 

As disastrous as Adams was? 😛

[vcczar]

17 minutes ago, Hestia said:

As disastrous as Adams was? 😛

Adams wasn't that disastrous, while the A & S acts were passed, he didn't enforce them. I think only like 5 people were affected. Some of the laws were kept by Jefferson and the worst of those laws were rightfully repealed. Adams also didn't create those laws and the veto was rarely used then, so he signed the laws as he was expected to do. Jefferson might have even signed those laws if he had a Federalist Congress. 

Adams's best feat was that he avoided war with France by securing peace, despite Hamilton and the majority of the Federalist party pushing for war. How many presidents can you think of that went against the majority party and popular opinion and secured peace rather than escalating a situation into a war? 

The economy under Adams was also likely better than the economy under Washington, although that is mostly due to policies under Washington. 

Randolph, while never president, was arguably the first Libertarian (made Jefferson look like Hamilton) in the sense of limited government (not foreign policy, necessarily). He also had a hair-trigger temper and was very disagreeable. I don't think the country would have progressed at all and the infighting between him and Congress might have destroyed the country. 

[Pringles]

All of the Adam's and the Federalist party in general are garbage. I dont even see how modern Progressives can support a party that resembles High Tory elitists. I dont even see how Republicans who champion small government and the general principles established by Thomas Jefferson and other early thinkers of that line of thought can support them.

[Zenobiyl]

53 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Randolph as a VP is enough for me to not vote for Monroe. Randolph would be a disastrous president. 

He also has no formal education. I thought the democratic republicans would’ve avoided making the same mistakes as mishfox (remember Elizabeth freeman?), but here we are.

[Timur]

14 minutes ago, Pringles said:

All of the Adam's and the Federalist party in general are garbage. I dont even see how modern Progressives can support a party that resembles High Tory elitists. I dont even see how Republicans who champion small government and the general principles established by Thomas Jefferson and other early thinkers of that line of thought can support them.

Well. I'm neither progressive nor for small government...

[WVProgressive]

Just now, Zenobiyl said:

He also has no formal education. I thought the democratic republicans would’ve avoided making the same mistakes as mishfox (remember Elizabeth freeman?), but here we are.

Randolph was an extremely intelligent man, with a quick wit, and a remarkable skill for oration. He is in no ways comparable to Elizabeth Freeman.

[vcczar]

9 minutes ago, Pringles said:

All of the Adam's and the Federalist party in general are garbage. I dont even see how modern Progressives can support a party that resembles High Tory elitists. I dont even see how Republicans who champion small government and the general principles established by Thomas Jefferson and other early thinkers of that line of thought can support them.

I don't think Federalists support them. In fact, I don't see how any American supports the entirety of either party. They were both often awful in their own ways. 

I support Federalists in their question to fund internal improvements (infrastructure), build a national credit for trade with other countries, the urban-focus, and the early abolitionism of some Federalists. I do despite their High Tory elitism, their bellicose nature, and their attachment to stockholders and big business, and the pro-slavery views of Southern Federalists. 

Adams is a little different. He was more of an independent Federalists. He often agreed with Jeffersonians. He voted for Monroe late in life. 

The radical Jeffersonians were pretty awful -- endorsing even the more radical parts of the French Revolution, a rejection of modernization and industrialization, pro-slavery views in the South and in the North (with a few exceptions), expansionism on the continent at the expense of Native tribes, anti-intellectualism among many Western and Southern Jeffersonians, etc. I do admire their relatively more pro-people, pro-labor focus -- they wished to expand suffrage and abolish debtor's prisons and they were more pro-immigrant. 

I wouldn't consider either party "garbage" as they both had strengths and flaws. 

Had I lived during the time, I'd probably be an independent Federalists or independent Jeffersonian. I'd favor expanded suffrage, but I'd also be very pro-internal improvements, pro-trade, urban-focus, and pro-industrial, but I'd also be more pro-labor than pro-business. I'd certainly be opposed to slavery and US expansionism. 

[Zenobiyl]

3 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

Randolph was an extremely intelligent man, with a quick wit, and a remarkable skill for oration. He is in no ways comparable to Elizabeth Freeman.

“In 1792, his family's wealth and influence gained him admission to William and Mary College in Williamsburg, Virginia. Convinced that his pronunciations of words were the only correct ones, he insulted fellow student Robert B. for allegedly mispronouncing a word. Randolph refused to apologize and a duel ensued. Randolph soon after left William and Mary, thus ending his formal education. Like so many other sons of wealth Virginia slaveholders, Randolph repeatedly failed upwards. His repeated failures and boorish, immoral actions had little effect on his career.”

He strikes me less as an intellectual and more as a frat bro type.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Zenobiyl

[Pringles]

4 minutes ago, Zenobiyl said:

“In 1792, his family's wealth and influence gained him admission to William and Mary College in Williamsburg, Virginia. Convinced that his pronunciations of words were the only correct ones, he insulted fellow student Robert B. for allegedly mispronouncing a word. Randolph refused to apologize and a duel ensued. Randolph soon after left William and Mary, thus ending his formal education. Like so many other sons of wealth Virginia slaveholders, Randolph repeatedly failed upwards. His repeated failures and boorish, immoral actions had little effect on his career.”

He strikes me less as an intellectual and more as a frat bro type.

Not as much of a frat boy as Alexander Hamilton. Look where that got him.

[Zenobiyl]

1 minute ago, Pringles said:

Not as much of a frat boy as Alexander Hamilton. Look where that got him.

Yeah lol, they are both quite bad. In hindsight I overlooked his shittyness at first because of the play, but I should’ve never played as him.

[Zenobiyl]

Also tfw the democratic Republican ticket is somehow more progressive on labor and economic issues

Edited June 23, 2021 by Zenobiyl

[WVProgressive]

3 minutes ago, Zenobiyl said:

He strikes me less as an intellectual and more as a frat bro type.

I never said he was an intellectual, just that he was intelligent. Sure, he might not have had the towering intellect of, say Thomas Jefferson, but he was far, far from stupid, and was a fantastic orator during his time.

[Zenobiyl]

3 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

I never said he was an intellectual, just that he was intelligent. Sure, he might not have had the towering intellect of, say Thomas Jefferson, but he was far, far from stupid, and was a fantastic orator during his time.

Yeah that’s fair, comparing him to freeman doesn’t do him justice. But he still feels like a trumpian style politician.

[Rezi]

Young D-R’s come gather round, we’ll beat Adams to the ground!

[Zenobiyl]

4 minutes ago, Rezi said:

Young D-R’s come gather round, we’ll beat Adams to the ground!

Adams has already lost tbh, Randolph will win the final votes he needs when the progressive voters show up.

[WVProgressive]

I think a lot of people have seemingly forgot that Monroe is the D-R nominee, and that Randolph easily lost the primary...

[Zenobiyl]

Yeah, given this forum you would expect a progressive candidate like Randolph to win easily. 

[Pringles]

1 hour ago, Zenobiyl said:

Yeah, given this forum you would expect a progressive candidate like Randolph to win easily. 

Progressive Randolph?

[Zenobiyl]

6 minutes ago, Patine said:

 

Not only was Randolph a far cry from anything remotely, recognizably, "Progressive," Progressivism was a socio-political movement that wouldn't exist, in it's original usage, for almost a century after his political heyday, and certainly not even it's modern form for close to a century more, nor was the word even used in a socio-political sense AT ALL, in any context, in his day, @Zenobiyl.

Will you just vote for Randolph anyways? He’s more left than adams 😉

[Zenobiyl]

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

By Mid-17th Century to early 19th Century standards, where left-wing was determined by Anti-Monarchism, Anti-Feudalism, Anti-Clericalism, Anti-Taxation, and Freeholder Rights (Democratic-Republicans in the U.S. First Party System, Jacobins, especially the Montagne, in Revolutionary France, Parliamentarians (Roundheads)/Country Party/Whig Party in England, Whiggoroles in Scotland, Patriot Party (two separate, but similarly named parties) in Ireland and the Dutch Republic), Parti Patriote in Lower Canada, and the more radical branches of the Reform Movement of Upper Canada) yes, he was very left-wing. But, by today's standards, he's an ultra-hard-ass, proto-Libertarian who, like all hard Libertarians, wants Government most of it's key duties and responsibilities.

Randolph only needs one more vote to seal the deal 🥺

[Timur]

8 hours ago, Zenobiyl said:

Randolph only needs one more vote to seal the deal 🥺

VPs are getting more attention then the Presidential candidate? Imagine Harris and Pence (or Pence and Kaine) getting more attention then Trump, Biden, or Clinton.

[ConservativeElector2]

Congratulations @Hestia and @WVProgressive

Mr. President, please assemble a cabinet and think already about at least one Supreme Court justice due to Associate Justice Randolph resigning.

[Hestia]

@ConservativeElector2

President: James Monroe

Vice President: John Randolph @WVProgressive

Secretary of State: Henry Clay

Secretary of Treasury: William Kennedy @Zenobiyl

Secretary of War: George Jones @Rezi

Attorney General: William Henry Harrison (Potato but idk if he's still participating 😄 )

Secretary of the Navy: Daniel D. Tompkins