Hestia Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Patine said: Although, at the end of the day, the Vietnam War even happening was a betrayal and high crime against him, and every other soldiers who died, was maimed, suffered PTSD, tropical diseases, etc., by the Johnson and Nixon Administrations. That war should NEVER have occurred. It was completely unnecessary and inexcusable. But, to separate McCain's military service from his politics, I have a general policy on these sorts of issues - one that way even surprise @MrPotatoTed - I honour the veterans of these wars (though often those who fought for all sides involved, except for those belonging to certain, "elite units of psychopaths," that most militaries keep on hand for the, "dirty work," otherwise they're often all of the same sort of people, and usually given no choice, and even often lied to about the real reasons for the wars, and often about who their fighting), but I don't respect, inherently, and will usually call to task the warmakers - and separate them on a fundamental level from the veterans. Yes, and what does this have to do with McCain in whatever fashion? I apologize for being abrupt with you, but this is genuinely abhorrent to read this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Patine said: I'm saying I can respect McCain as a veteran, but not as a warmaker. I said near the end of my post I separate his military service from his politics. Yes, but generally the thread is frustrating, not you specifically. The first part of the reply seemed to be unnecessary to the topic at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilight Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 27 minutes ago, jvikings1 said: I am old enough to remember when liberals were accusing McCain of racism. They only "respected" him recently because he opposed Trump. Far from a principled position. John "I will hate gooks as long as I live" McCain? Perish the thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 27 minutes ago, Patine said: Although, at the end of the day, the Vietnam War even happening was a betrayal and high crime against him, and every other soldiers who died, was maimed, suffered PTSD, tropical diseases, etc., by the Johnson and Nixon Administrations. That war should NEVER have occurred. It was completely unnecessary and inexcusable. But, to separate McCain's military service from his politics, I have a general policy on these sorts of issues - one that way even surprise @MrPotatoTed - I honour the veterans of these wars (though often those who fought for all sides involved, except for those belonging to certain, "elite units of psychopaths," that most militaries keep on hand for the, "dirty work," otherwise they're often all of the same sort of people, and usually given no choice, and even often lied to about the real reasons for the wars, and often about who their fighting), but I don't respect, inherently, and will usually call to task the warmakers - and separate them on a fundamental level from the veterans. I am not sure if I am surprised by your policy because it had so many qualifiers that I didn't actually understand your policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Patine said: The specific policy I refer to (the one you were tagged over) is to respect veterans of wars (who usually have no choice once they've enlisted, and are often lied to about the reasons for the war and the nature of the enemy), but respect veterans of all sides of wars (because they all, mostly match the above description), but not to show inherent deference or respect to the warmakers, and even to call them to task. Separating the two sharply is a very key part of the policy. Did you just say you respect “Veterans of all sides of wars”? Big fan of the Nazis, are ya? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Hestia said: Maybe you have no idea what he went through, so you shouldn't tell him what he should or should not do? Absolutely disgusting and unfathomable. Being a veteran does not shield one from criticism, especially in politics. And it certainly does not excuse actions taken by them. I'm not the one who is waving around the vet card as a cop out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Sean F Kennedy said: Your boy Rand Paul backed Trump who himself was a war monger He did, McCain was famously AGAINST torture. Meanwhile your boy Rand Paul stood with Trump who’s drone strikes killed innocent civilians 85% of the time because he did 0 research before bombing. 🙄 If you were to recall, Rand Paul was one of the only Republican Senators to speak out against the drone strikes under Trump and even voted for a resolution against them. Not many on either side are willing to be consistent on this issue once their side gets in power. If you are gonna pull that card, you might want to be aware of that fact! He also endorsed Romney in 2012 (not a decision I would support). But I don't see how either is relevant to the topic at hand. Oh, and McCain might have spoken out against torture, but his voting record shows that he was willing to vote to authorize tactics. Empty words from a useless Senator! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, The Blood said: I am fairly non-interventionist, but you have no right to parade around the experiences of a veteran and say what they "should have" learned from the horrible things they went through. Then people shouldn't use the vet card as an excuse for their later actions. It's not some trump card that shields one from criticism or the loss of respect. His experiences in war have no impact on his terrible performance as Senator, where he stood for some pretty terrible things. But it's funny how people try to revert to them when he gets criticized. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, jvikings1 said: I am old enough to remember when liberals were accusing McCain of racism. They only "respected" him recently because he opposed Trump. Far from a principled position. To be fair, that sounds like something they would do. Like the media hypocritically attacking Bush for the Iraq War and then later slamming Trump for pulling out troops from Syria, saying it is a betrayal of the Kurds (BTW, it was). Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sean F Kennedy said: Your boy Rand Paul backed Trump who himself was a war monger Trump was a war monger? He is one of the reasons why I now sympathize with the neoconservatives (Bush, Cheney, Kristol, etc.). Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, pilight said: John "I will hate gooks as long as I live" McCain? Perish the thought! Wasn't he tortured by the North Vietnamese? Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) FDR, Truman, and Churchill were also "warmongers" in WWII and the Korean War. The horseshoe theory comes to mind again. Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Also, I recall reading that many of the American soldiers in Vietnam were addicted to drugs, so it really damaged their ability to fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) Well McCain is a warmonger because he is a tool of the Rockefellers who want wars so that they can establish a Satanic tyrannical one-world government. In fact, every warmonger is a member of the NWO. Bush, a member of Skull and Bones, the successor of the Illuminati, has been an important member. Also, do not forget Bob Dole, a 33-degree Freemason who drank wine out of a human skull. Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 •“a new world order—can emerge: a new era—freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. […] America and the world must defend common vital interests—and we will. America and the world must support the rule of law—and we will. America and the world must stand up to aggression—and we will. And one thing more: In the pursuit of these goals America will not be intimidated.” •Address Before a Joint Session of Congress (September 11, 1990) George H. W. Bush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 •“We have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves and for future generations a new world order -- a world where the rule of law, not the law of the jungle, governs the conduct of nations. When we are successful -- and we will be -- we have a real chance at this new world order, an order in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the U.N.'s founders.” •George Bush – President of the United States 1989-1993 •Address to the Nation January 16, 1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 It's funny how jvikings1 and Mishfox can make a dead forum alive. The horseshoe theory strikes again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Patine said: The specific policy I refer to (the one you were tagged over) is to respect veterans of wars (who usually have no choice once they've enlisted, and are often lied to about the reasons for the war and the nature of the enemy), but respect veterans of all sides of wars (because they all, mostly match the above description), but not to show inherent deference or respect to the warmakers, and even to call them to task. Separating the two sharply is a very key part of the policy. How about veterans of the modern day Caliphate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Timur said: Well McCain is a warmonger because he is a tool of the Rockefellers who want wars so that they can establish a Satanic tyrannical one-world government. In fact, every warmonger is a member of the NWO. Bush, a member of Skull and Bones, the successor of the Illuminati, has been an important member. Also, do not forget Bob Dole, a 33-degree Freemason who drank wine out of a human skull. What they don't want you to know! http://masonictraveler.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-john-mccain-freemason.html Edited June 30, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Aaaaand I’m out. “I respect all Veterans, it’s just that they murder poor innocent Nazis because they’re too stupid to know better. If only Veterans could be as smart as I am....” actually isn’t respecting Veterans at all. At BEST, it is pitying them, which is not respect. There’s no need to tag me with whatever further nonsense you have to add on this topic, Patine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Patine said: Oh, @Timur. Do you agree with @MrPotatoTed vile and warped malrendition of my post and shamelessly and disgustingly accusing me of something I had not at all said? Sometimes, there is no such thing as both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Timur said: Sometimes, there is no such thing as both sides. Also, whether you have a point or not, Trump, Buchanan, and Gauland have caused controversy by making statements that sound similar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Timur said: Also, whether you have a point or not, Trump, Buchanan, and Gauland have caused controversy by making statements that sound similar... Maybe you need to word your statements better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 minute ago, Patine said: I don't think you got my point, either, or were even paying attention, because those responses is not at all really relevant or valid. What I was doing was refuting propaganda. Propaganda (especially during wartime) is used to dehumanize and solidify bad stereotypes about the, "enemy," as a toxic form of, "moral anesthesia." It is not even remotely based on truth or any valid factual information, and anyone with a brain in their skull understands and knows this. My point was that servicemen in militaries around the world, in wars throughout history, are often in very similar situation, and often drawn from very similar crops of recruitment (usually physically-fit young men who are not too terribly, "out," with their Government and society without extensive education or a skilled profession and not upper class - that's the typical demographic, across the board, as a rule). The Governments, General Rank Officers, economic, political, and social motivators for war, the, "elite units of psychopaths," and other such warmakers are the general instigators of war and usually the perpetrators (at least at the highest levels - whether through direct orders, encouragement, or tacit allowance) of war atrocities. The majority of rank-and-file servicemen obey orders - there may be varying degrees of enthusiasm, complicency, and knowledge of the bigger picture - but these servicemen, regardless of nation or war, are often in similar situations, and similar likelihood to be, "bad apples," of their own volition. What @MrPotatoTed seemed so offended by, from what I could gather, was the fact I broke the propaganda line that disingenuously says that all 15 million members of the Wehrmacht were all, each and every one of them, as morally bankrupt and evil and as the Cabinet and Chancery of the Third Reich at the highest level, and this breach of dehumanizing, bad, old wartime propaganda stereotyping seemed to so anger him he made an insulting and vicious malintertrepration of my post, and then - I believe his favourite term for this is - "threw a hissy," and said not to tag him again on the topic. And, as this post indicates, the two posts I quoted above are, as I said, neither relevant nor valid. In fact, Neo-Manichaean thinking has become a toxic problem in the socio-political discourse of MAJOR proportions, and should be endeavoured to be discouraged, and eventually flushed. Maybe, but they still fought for the wrong side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Timur said: Maybe, but they still fought for the wrong side. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41279300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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