A 21st Century President Poll

[vcczar]

Here's a poll for us, using C-Span Categories. Feel free to elaboration or rank in the comments. 

[MrPotatoTed]

I'm not sure how to define moral authority, did C-Span offer a definition in their poll?

 

[Rezi]

As of now, my rankings would be Clinton > Obama > Biden > Bush II > Trump. Biden, however, I could see overtaking Obama by the end of this year and Clinton by the end of his term. Clinton in general was a very effective moderate President who I think would’ve been very popular and led the Democratic Party into more success had he not been so scandalous. The Clinton Presidency, IMO, is a time when America was really on the upswing, and really the end of pre-9/11 America, and the country hasn’t really been the same since then.

[vcczar]

7 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

I'm not sure how to define moral authority, did C-Span offer a definition in their poll?

 

I'm not sure. I define it as someone who is themself moral, promotes moral authority, and inspired moral authority. 

[vcczar]

@Cenzonico just curious why you think Trump wins in "Public Persuasion" and "Vision/Setting an Agenda." I see these as two of his worst categories. For the former, you have evidence that he isn't persuasive. He suffered a wave in the midterms and lost the popular vote twice, and lost reelection. That isn't persuasiveness. For the latter, while he had a catchy slogan and agenda for 2016, he got lazy. He didn't even have a 2020 platform at his convention! This was the first platformless convention since like 1848. That's the opposite of setting an agenda or vision. 

 

[MrPotatoTed]

4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

@Cenzonico just curious why you think Trump wins in "Public Persuasion" and "Vision/Setting an Agenda." I see these as two of his worst categories. For the former, you have evidence that he isn't persuasive. He suffered a wave in the midterms and lost the popular vote twice, and lost reelection. That isn't persuasiveness. For the latter, while he had a catchy slogan and agenda for 2016, he got lazy. He didn't even have a 2020 platform at his convention! This was the first platformless convention since like 1848. That's the opposite of setting an agenda or vision. 

 

I could see the argument that he's persuasive.  Obvious he's never going to convince a Democrat -- he also never really tried.  But he DID convince almost the entire Republican Party to abandon everything they believe in to the extent that some of them were even willing to kill police officers to "stop the steal".  

I certainly agree that he had no agenda or vision.

Edited July 1, 2021 by MrPotatoTed

[vcczar]

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

I would put Bush lower than Trump. Trump did a lot of damage, but I feel the damage he did was, "trauma damage a triage unit in a hospital," would have to deal with, whereas the damage the Bush Administration is like a seeping poison or a growing cancer that's not even remotely done. Bush took bold actions, unilaterally, as U.S. President that he didn't even Constitutionally or legal have, or have the legal authority to use. And, even though using these overreach powers were high crimes, betrayals, and abdications of his oath of office - nobody stopped him! This sets VERY dark precedents for the future indeed. Also, the (un)Patriot Act, a treasonous act of utmost contempt for the U.S. Constitution and system of due process, with no sunset date on how many times it can be renewed, or brought back into force, and frighteningly vague definitions of what a, "terrorist group," or, "act of terrorism," is, is a true abomination upon U.S. legislation. Also, the damage Bush's heavy-handed foreign policy, illegal wars, and war crimes have done in foreign affairs still linger, and likely will even after the dust settles from the ramifications of Trump's, "bull in a china shop," policies. And, to boot, Bush left office with an economic recession as a gift to his successor.

And before you ask, @vcczar, I'll try to take a whack at this poll later today.

I think part of your reason for putting Bush below Trump is because you don't live in America so your perspective is as a non-American, obviously. I would argue this, using your analogy: The Bush administration is like an ever-growing seeping poison or growing cancer that is mostly infecting the outside world; The Trump administration is like a self-inflicted ever-growing seeping poison or cancer that is mostly infecting inside our house.

Naturally, since we live in America, the Trump poison/cancer is the priority problem and much more infrastructural. It's closer to home. Were I Canadian, Iraqi, Saudi, or Swedish or from about any other country, I'd probably agree with you that Bush II is worse than Trump. But I live in America. I think domestically. Domestic is the priority over foreign affairs/diplomacy because I life the former every second and the latter only makes occasional appearances in our lives. 

As such, any ranking by me, and most Americans of presidents within their own lives would probably be with about 75% homefront presidency in mind. We tend to give more credit/blame for foreign affairs/diplomacy when we are far removed from that presidency, I think. 

I think similarly, Americans would over-rank Canadian Prime Ministers on how they interact with us and with other nations, focusing less on the domestic and homefront life. 

[pilight]

Surprised so many people have voted for touchy old Joe Biden as a moral authority

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, pilight said:

Surprised so many people have voted for touchy old Joe Biden as a moral authority

I think it was down to him and Obama. I think some of Obama's War on Terror policy hurts him. Biden hasn't really done anything to hurt his moral legacy as president. He's arguably helped it by taking up the moral cause of defeating Trump as a major campaign strategy. I think this was somewhat affective. 

If I allowed ties I would have voted for both Obama and Biden. Trump and Clinton are obviously out of the question and making them options is kind of ridiculous. Bush is hurt because of some of the lies regarding Iraq and WMDs and for War on Terror policy in general when it involved high civilian deaths and stuff like that. 

[ConservativeElector2]

Meant to vote for Obama in "Vision/Setting an Agenda"

[Cenzonico]

1 hour ago, vcczar said:

@Cenzonico just curious why you think Trump wins in "Public Persuasion" and "Vision/Setting an Agenda." I see these as two of his worst categories. For the former, you have evidence that he isn't persuasive. He suffered a wave in the midterms and lost the popular vote twice, and lost reelection. That isn't persuasiveness. For the latter, while he had a catchy slogan and agenda for 2016, he got lazy. He didn't even have a 2020 platform at his convention! This was the first platformless convention since like 1848. That's the opposite of setting an agenda or vision. 

 

For the public persuasion part, Trump has made most of the GOP abandon its ideology in favor of his and has supporters who will swoon, follow, and do things in his name. Basically a cult of personality around himself. "Make America Great Again" or "Drain the Swamp" were simple and got the right people he needed around him, even though he went all authoritarian/big government anyway. Drain the swamp my ass, he is the swamp now. I could say the same for Obama 08, just to a greater effect.

[DakotaHale]

As of now my rankings are Clinton > Trump & Obama (tied) > Biden > Bush.

I find it funny that Biden is tied for 1st at the time of this poll for "pursuing equal justice for all" despite his horrendous voting record, choice of Vice President, and the fact that he hasn't really done anything yet (except Juneteenth, but Trump was doing that anyways as part of the Platinum Plan)

[vcczar]

37 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

As of now my rankings are Clinton > Trump & Obama (tied) > Biden > Bush.

I find it funny that Biden is tied for 1st at the time of this poll for "pursuing equal justice for all" despite his horrendous voting record, choice of Vice President, and the fact that he hasn't really done anything yet (except Juneteenth, but Trump was doing that anyways as part of the Platinum Plan)

Biden's voting record wouldn't matter in a presidential poll. He was a Senator then. His choice of VP would. I think the selection of Harris can be seen as an "equality" accomplishment. First woman VP; first Asian VP; first mix-race VP. Legislatively -- Juneteenth, rescinding a lot of Trump's anti-equality things (like banning trans troops in the military, etc.), and some other things. I do think it is odd that he is the top choice, however. 

[jvikings1]

Moral Authority was a tough one because none of them have any moral authority at all. Bush II, Obama, and Biden have used/are using agencies to target political opponents. All 3 have been highly supportive of expanding war (specifically the war on terror)[Trump would fall into this category as well]. And Bush II and Obama had a number of scandals related to their policies/administration. Trump and Clinton had terrible personal morals (that was out in the open. Wouldn't shock me if the others had some bad stuff on them as well). Biden has some stuff out in the open but not totally to the same extent.

[vcczar]

51 minutes ago, Patine said:

Although I fear, @vcczar, despite this post, and others I, and others have made, and other analyses out there, you still seem quite dismissive, for some reason, of the long-term domestic damage to due process and the cavalier nature of abuse of power by the Executive that is part a very significant part of the Bush legacy, and still seem to see his failings as being almost entirely domestic and military. But I suppose a ticking timebomb, or a toolkit of tyranny waiting to be more ruthlessly utilized down the line, is easier to ignore as a major threat than a blazing wildfire, but no less of a major threat! And given Biden had been a big supporter of, and cheerleader for, the Patriot Act when it was passed, and renewed, he will almost certainly not make purging this festering aberration upon U.S. Constitutional and legal tradition any sort of priority at all to dismantle.

I do and have always opposed 99% of the Patriot Act. I consider and Bush II and the Patriot Act two of the worst things to ever afflict America. However, I think Trump has been and is worse for America.

[Dobs]

Overall: Bush > Clinton > Obama > Biden > Trump

Persuasion: Clinton > Bush > Obama > Biden > Trump

Crisis Leadership: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Economy: Clinton > Bush > Biden > Obama > Trump

Moral: Bush > Biden > Obama > Clinton > Trump

International: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Admin: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Congress: Bush > Biden > Clinton > Obama > Trump

Vision: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Justice: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Context: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

---

1. George W. Bush is pretty comfortably the best President of the 21st century. He's also the only President of the 21st century to have a positive mark from me (if only just barely). Bush perhaps best excels for his Foreign Policy which was a successful continuation of the American strategy of allied cooperation and peace through strength that liberated millions and made the world just a little stabler for his troubles. His economy views get him into some trouble. His massive expansion of government spending as well as his signature of TARP will cost him major points and while I love a tax cut, he accompanied it with increases in spending we simple could not afford. Similarly, his domestic approval of the Patriot Act as well as opposition to Same-Sex Marriage are both major black marks on his domestic views. However, his comittment to justice for the unborn does not go unnoticed. His Crisis Management was unmatched and I am eternally glad he was President on September 11th, 2001 and not Al Gore. His pro-immigrant policies are a nice plus as well that remind me of a much better GOP on that issue. In many ways he was the last major vestige of Reaganite immigration policies. Bush is the only President in the century that excelled in any one category which will almost automatically give him the one spot. The fact he edges everyone else out in pretty much all the other categories seal the deal. By no means was he great. He was barely even good. But he's up against some absolute jokers so congrats on the Gold George.

2. Bill Clinton is a man about whose Presidency there is a lot to say. Unfortunately (actually fortunately), for Mr. Clinton, it won't be said here. Clinton can, in my view, only be judged for his time in office from January 1st, 2000 - January 20th, 2001 for the parameters of this poll. That is to say that lame duck Clinton is going to clock in at the silver precisely because he was just that - lame. Clinton's greatest impact on the 21st century is the legacy of his crime reform as well as the roll he played in causing the Great Recession. It's true that the actions most attributable to these things did not happen in his final year but it's also true that he did not take his final year to fix them. That's enought to stick him right in neutral mode. He was a man with personality to be President, that carries for him. But he also failed to do anything of significance at all to remedy the coming issues his administration would cause. That glowing assesment will earn him 2nd place, God help us all.

3. Congratulations to President Obama for being really bad at many things and really okay at some things. It gets you a bronze!  Let's start with the good stuff, shall we? Hm, this is hard. Ok, I got one. The Iran Deal was actually really good and was unfairly shat upon by Republicans looking for a partisan victory. Beyond that I can't really think of a single signature policy that stands out. His stimulus was the worst economic recovery package since the Great Depression's failed New Deal. The "evolving opinion" on same-sex marriage is both lame and fails to be cushioned by support for the rights of the unborn. Obama's one saving grace is that he did a fair job engaging with our allies. He opened his administration was a massive blunder - losing us the Iraq War and aiding and abetting the rise of ISIS. Big yikes. But then again he also negotiated TPP, a really solid trade agreement. Obama was often great with allies and terrible with enemies. Though every now and then he was able to hold his ground (think Afghanistan, not Syria). Furthermore, his continuation of Bush's domestic programme of government expansion over the 4th amendment as well as God knows how many other infringements on religious freedoms and constitutional freedoms is God forsaken. This is true of both Americans and the immigrants he deported en masse. President Obama, were it not for his ability to unite the country if only for a time around laudable principles as well as his ability to unite the Free World behind him in impressive displays of Western unity, would be a failure. But he's not. So good for him. Take your bronze and slink whence you came Barack.

4. Giuseppe Biderino. Where to start. Perhaps with a nap. Joe Biden pulls up the caboose of Presidents who actually knew how to do their job and then proceeded to do it to various degrees of success. As of yet, I really can think of barely anything policy-oriented that redeems Joe. I will admit that our allies no longer laughing at us is nice. But that's probably it. I appreciate the warming of relations with some of our closest allies, but I remain skeptical of his abilities to counter our allies. Furthermore his government spending has blown past even the voracious Obama, bone-chilling. And while he presents himself as someone who knows of President Obama's social short-comings (on immigration, criminal justice, etc.), he hasn't presented himself as someone who will do anything about said knowledge. I see deja vu on the horizon in terms of Obama's great invasions on constitutional rights as well. God help us the next four years. May Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, Justin Amash, Ron DeSantis, anybody, God anybody come save us. Well, anybody but...

5. Donald Trump, not just easily the worst President of the 21st century but also the worst President in American history. What were we thinking electing a Bankrupt Silver Spooner turned Reality TV star President? Probably just how bad the last guy was. (Remember the guy who just won the Bronze... yeah that clown, this is our cast of characters here. I need to say a Hail Mary.) Alas, it netted us a joker of tectonic proportions. I've yipped and yapped about each of the previous gentlemen's shortcomings, but they don't hold a candle to Mr. Trump. Let's start from the beginning. He actually began his Presidency charming me into thinking he could be ok. He began falling into the same trap as Bush - tax cuts and spending increases. But hey, a tax cut is something and maybe it's a sign that he could be reigned in by Congressional Republicans. Oh dear how wrong I was. Donald Trump fails and falls last in every category by his own merit (or lack thereof). It was not some predetermined grade in which I forced him to the bottom in each category. No, in an independent review of each candidate and each category, he falls to last place every. single. time. His attacks on the separation of powers and attempt to erase Congressional power of appropriate was the single greatest Presidential power grab in American history (yes that includes Jackson, FDR, and Patine's favorite Patriot Act from Golden Boy George). Of course his scandals galore make Clinton blush on the personal level and Obama envious on the administrative level. His wrecking ball attitude to world relations left us with fewer allies and emboldened enemies. His incredible knack for not knowing things (or just how to act like an adult in general) left us hilariously exposed for ridicule by our Allies (yes, they were laughing at us. Hell, I was laughing at us, only with tears coming down my face as well). His response to Covid borders on criminal negligence and everything his predecessors did in terms of infringements of rights he looked at and said "I like it, but I want it yuger." He took a great piece of the Bush I - Clinton legacy (NAFTA) and neutered it just to say he did something. He took thousands of immigrants and stripped them of their basic human rights, let alone those guaranteed by the Constitution. Trade Wars, Muslim Bans, Bump Stock Bans, Mexican Rapists, tear gas on peaceful protesters, extreme scandal, and global humiliation.

All of this, somehow, is not the half of what makes Donald Trump inexorably the worst President in American history. For Donald Trump is the only President in American history to declare open war on American democracy and the Republic its self. His tantrum which he threw in response to the results of the 2020 Presidential election, the self-pity and snot-filled tears which spewed from his vapid mouth were like the very armaments defending the White House turning inward and firing. And hell, it turns out we weren't half off from that actually happening. I'm really glad no one chose Trump as best for "relations with Congress" because the man sparked the first attack on the Capitol since 1812. Four years of tearing down respect for the Constitution, for the Republic, for Democracy, for our fellow Americans and common humanity resulted in the gruesome display of confederate flags and Q worshippers invading the hallowed halls of Congress. It resulted in furred conspiracy theories taking hold of the floor of the United States Senate. Shots fired in the Capitol and people, officers, patriots dead in its wake. It made him the only President to be impeached twice, an honor I pray he shares all by his lonesome for the rest of American history. 

Donald Trump was elected for one reason - his narcissitic desire for fame. From fame he derived power. And with his power he tore asunder the very underpinnings of the American Republic. Any single American President would look like a saint next to him. Even Buchanan just stood by as open insurrection sprung out under him. Trump was there shouting it forward it from the box seats. He will forever be the worst person to hold the office of President. He will forever be the worst performing President in American history. And he will forever be unique in just how terrible he was. And if history should ever prove me wrong in those predictions, May God Save the United States of America.

Last place.

[Hestia]

3 minutes ago, Dobs said:

Overall: Bush > Clinton > Obama > Biden > Trump

Persuasion: Clinton > Bush > Obama > Biden > Trump

Crisis Leadership: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Economy: Clinton > Bush > Biden > Obama > Trump

Moral: Bush > Biden > Obama > Clinton > Trump

International: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Admin: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Congress: Bush > Biden > Clinton > Obama > Trump

Vision: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Justice: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Context: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

---

1. George W. Bush is pretty comfortably the best President of the 21st century. He's also the only President of the 21st century to have a positive mark from me (if only just barely). Bush perhaps best excels for his Foreign Policy which was a successful continuation of the American strategy of allied cooperation and peace through strength that liberated millions and made the world just a little stabler for his troubles. His economy views get him into some trouble. His massive expansion of government spending as well as his signature of TARP will cost him major points and while I love a tax cut, he accompanied it with increases in spending we simple could not afford. Similarly, his domestic approval of the Patriot Act as well as opposition to Same-Sex Marriage are both major black marks on his domestic views. However, his comittment to justice for the unborn does not go unnoticed. His Crisis Management was unmatched and I am eternally glad he was President on September 11th, 2001 and not Al Gore. His pro-immigrant policies are a nice plus as well that remind me of a much better GOP on that issue. In many ways he was the last major vestige of Reaganite immigration policies. Bush is the only President in the century that excelled in any one category which will almost automatically give him the one spot. The fact he edges everyone else out in pretty much all the other categories seal the deal. By no means was he great. He was barely even good. But he's up against some absolute jokers so congrats on the Gold George.

2. Bill Clinton is a man about whose Presidency there is a lot to say. Unfortunately (actually fortunately), for Mr. Clinton, it won't be said here. Clinton can, in my view, only be judged for his time in office from January 1st, 2000 - January 20th, 2001 for the parameters of this poll. That is to say that lame duck Clinton is going to clock in at the silver precisely because he was just that - lame. Clinton's greatest impact on the 21st century is the legacy of his crime reform as well as the roll he played in causing the Great Recession. It's true that the actions most attributable to these things did not happen in his final year but it's also true that he did not take his final year to fix them. That's enought to stick him right in neutral mode. He was a man with personality to be President, that carries for him. But he also failed to do anything of significance at all to remedy the coming issues his administration would cause. That glowing assesment will earn him 2nd place, God help us all.

3. Congratulations to President Obama for being really bad at many things and really okay at some things. It gets you a bronze!  Let's start with the good stuff, shall we? Hm, this is hard. Ok, I got one. The Iran Deal was actually really good and was unfairly shat upon by Republicans looking for a partisan victory. Beyond that I can't really think of a single signature policy that stands out. His stimulus was the worst economic recovery package since the Great Depression's failed New Deal. The "evolving opinion" on same-sex marriage is both lame and fails to be cushioned by support for the rights of the unborn. Obama's one saving grace is that he did a fair job engaging with our allies. He opened his administration was a massive blunder - losing us the Iraq War and aiding and abetting the rise of ISIS. Big yikes. But then again he also negotiated TPP, a really solid trade agreement. Obama was often great with allies and terrible with enemies. Though every now and then he was able to hold his ground (think Afghanistan, not Syria). Furthermore, his continuation of Bush's domestic programme of government expansion over the 4th amendment as well as God knows how many other infringements on religious freedoms and constitutional freedoms is God forsaken. This is true of both Americans and the immigrants he deported en masse. President Obama, were it not for his ability to unite the country if only for a time around laudable principles as well as his ability to unite the Free World behind him in impressive displays of Western unity, would be a failure. But he's not. So good for him. Take your bronze and slink when you came Barack.

4. Giuseppe Biderino. Where to start. Perhaps with a nap. Joe Biden pulls up the caboose of Presidents who actually knew how to do their job and then proceeded to do it to various degrees of success. As of yet, I really can think of barely anything policy-oriented that redeems Joe. I will admit that our allies no longer laughing at us is nice. But that's probably it. I appreciate the warming of relations with some of our closest allies, but I remain skeptical of his abilities to counter our allies. Furthermore his government spending has blown past even the voracious Obama, bone-chilling. And while he presents himself as someone who knows of President Obama's social short-comings (on immigration, criminal justice, etc.), he hasn't presented himself as someone who will do anything about said knowledge. I see deja vu on the horizon in terms of Obama's great invasions on constitutional rights as well. God help us the next four years. May Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, Justin Amash, Ron DeSantis, anybody, God anybody come save us. Well, anybody but...

5. Donald Trump, not just easily the worst President of the 21st century but also the worst President in American history. What were we thinking electing a Bankrupt Silver Spooner turned Reality TV star President? Probably just how bad the last guy was. (Remember the guy who just won the Bronze... yeah that clown, this is our cast of characters here. I need to say a Hail Mary.) Alas, it netted us a joker of tectonic proportions. I've yipped and yapped about each of the previous gentlemen's shortcomings, but they don't hold a candle to Mr. Trump. Let's start from the beginning. He actually began his Presidency charming me into thinking he could be ok. He began falling into the same trap as Bush - tax cuts and spending increases. But hey, a tax cut is something and maybe it's a sign that he could be reigned in by Congressional Republicans. Oh dear how wrong I was. Donald Trump fails and falls last in every category by his own merit (or lack thereof). It was not some predetermined grade in which I forced him to the bottom in each category. No, in an independent review of each candidate and each category, he falls to last place every. single. time. His attacks on the separation of powers and attempt to erase Congressional power of appropriate was the single greatest Presidential power grab in American history (yes that includes Jackson, FDR, and Patine's favorite Patriot Act from Golden Boy George). Of course his scandals galore make Clinton blush on the personal level and Obama envious on the administrative level. His wrecking ball attitude to world relations left us with fewer allies and emboldened enemies. His incredible knack for not knowing things (or just how to act like an adult in general) left us hilariously exposed for ridicule by our Allies (yes, they were laughing at us. Hell, I was laughing at us, only with tears coming down my face as well). His response to Covid borders on criminal negligence and everything his predecessors did in terms of infringements of rights he looked at and said "I like it, but I want it yuger." He took a great piece of the Bush I - Clinton legacy (NAFTA) and neutered it just to say he did something. He took thousands of immigrants and stripped them of their basic human rights, let alone those guaranteed by the Constitution. Trade Wars, Muslim Bans, Bump Stock Bans, Mexican Rapists, tear gas on peaceful protesters, extreme scandal, and global humiliation.

All of this, somehow, is not the half of what makes Donald Trump inexorably the worst President in American history. For Donald Trump is the only President in American history to declare open war on American democracy and the Republic its self. His tantrum which he threw in response to the results of the 2020 Presidential election, the self-pity and snot-filled tears which spewed from his vapid mouth were like the very armaments defending the White House turning inward and firing. And hell, it turns out we weren't half off from that actually happening. I'm really glad no one chose Trump as best for "relations with Congress" because the man sparked the attack on the Capitol since 1812. Four years of tearing down respect for the Constitution, for the Republic, for Democracy, for our fellow Americans and common humanity resulted in the gruesome display of confederate flags and Q worshippers invading the hallowed halls of Congress. It resulted in furred conspiracy theories taking hold of the floor of the United States Senate. Shots fired in the Capitol and people, officers, patriots dead in its wake. It made him the second President ever to be impeached, an honor I pray he shares all by his lonesome for the rest of American history. 

Donald Trump was elected for one reason - his narcissitic desire for fame. From fame he derived power. And with his power he tore asunder the very underpinnings of the American Republic. Any single American President would look like a saint next to him. Even Buchanan just stood by as open insurrection sprung out under him. Trump was there shouting it forward it from the box seats. He will forever be the worst person to hold the office of President. He will forever be the worst performing President in American history. And he will forever be unique in just how terrible he was. And if history should ever prove me wrong in those predictions, May God Save the United States of America.

Last place.

I disagree in some ways, in what you probably know and is predictable 🙂 But it was incredibly well-worded and a good representation of the right-leaning side, so you get a like 😄

[Zenobiyl]

I’m very bummed Bush Sr isnt on this list, because he is without a doubt one of the most underrated presidents in modern history. Won the Gulf War, won the Cold War, helped set the stage for the Clinton deficit reduction by raising taxes. He was a savvy operator who had experience and skill that just didn’t translate into persuading the voters. Clinton is easily the best of the options available, but I still think he isn’t quite as good as Bush Sr. was.

[Hestia]

1 minute ago, Patine said:

But I don't, for a similar post? And better grammar and readability than usual? 🤨

There you go 🙂

[Pringles]

10 minutes ago, Dobs said:

Overall: Bush > Clinton > Obama > Biden > Trump

Persuasion: Clinton > Bush > Obama > Biden > Trump

Crisis Leadership: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Economy: Clinton > Bush > Biden > Obama > Trump

Moral: Bush > Biden > Obama > Clinton > Trump

International: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Admin: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Congress: Bush > Biden > Clinton > Obama > Trump

Vision: Bush > Obama > Clinton > Biden > Trump

Justice: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

Context: Bush > Obama > Biden > Clinton > Trump

---

1. George W. Bush is pretty comfortably the best President of the 21st century. He's also the only President of the 21st century to have a positive mark from me (if only just barely). Bush perhaps best excels for his Foreign Policy which was a successful continuation of the American strategy of allied cooperation and peace through strength that liberated millions and made the world just a little stabler for his troubles. His economy views get him into some trouble. His massive expansion of government spending as well as his signature of TARP will cost him major points and while I love a tax cut, he accompanied it with increases in spending we simple could not afford. Similarly, his domestic approval of the Patriot Act as well as opposition to Same-Sex Marriage are both major black marks on his domestic views. However, his comittment to justice for the unborn does not go unnoticed. His Crisis Management was unmatched and I am eternally glad he was President on September 11th, 2001 and not Al Gore. His pro-immigrant policies are a nice plus as well that remind me of a much better GOP on that issue. In many ways he was the last major vestige of Reaganite immigration policies. Bush is the only President in the century that excelled in any one category which will almost automatically give him the one spot. The fact he edges everyone else out in pretty much all the other categories seal the deal. By no means was he great. He was barely even good. But he's up against some absolute jokers so congrats on the Gold George.

2. Bill Clinton is a man about whose Presidency there is a lot to say. Unfortunately (actually fortunately), for Mr. Clinton, it won't be said here. Clinton can, in my view, only be judged for his time in office from January 1st, 2000 - January 20th, 2001 for the parameters of this poll. That is to say that lame duck Clinton is going to clock in at the silver precisely because he was just that - lame. Clinton's greatest impact on the 21st century is the legacy of his crime reform as well as the roll he played in causing the Great Recession. It's true that the actions most attributable to these things did not happen in his final year but it's also true that he did not take his final year to fix them. That's enought to stick him right in neutral mode. He was a man with personality to be President, that carries for him. But he also failed to do anything of significance at all to remedy the coming issues his administration would cause. That glowing assesment will earn him 2nd place, God help us all.

3. Congratulations to President Obama for being really bad at many things and really okay at some things. It gets you a bronze!  Let's start with the good stuff, shall we? Hm, this is hard. Ok, I got one. The Iran Deal was actually really good and was unfairly shat upon by Republicans looking for a partisan victory. Beyond that I can't really think of a single signature policy that stands out. His stimulus was the worst economic recovery package since the Great Depression's failed New Deal. The "evolving opinion" on same-sex marriage is both lame and fails to be cushioned by support for the rights of the unborn. Obama's one saving grace is that he did a fair job engaging with our allies. He opened his administration was a massive blunder - losing us the Iraq War and aiding and abetting the rise of ISIS. Big yikes. But then again he also negotiated TPP, a really solid trade agreement. Obama was often great with allies and terrible with enemies. Though every now and then he was able to hold his ground (think Afghanistan, not Syria). Furthermore, his continuation of Bush's domestic programme of government expansion over the 4th amendment as well as God knows how many other infringements on religious freedoms and constitutional freedoms is God forsaken. This is true of both Americans and the immigrants he deported en masse. President Obama, were it not for his ability to unite the country if only for a time around laudable principles as well as his ability to unite the Free World behind him in impressive displays of Western unity, would be a failure. But he's not. So good for him. Take your bronze and slink when you came Barack.

4. Giuseppe Biderino. Where to start. Perhaps with a nap. Joe Biden pulls up the caboose of Presidents who actually knew how to do their job and then proceeded to do it to various degrees of success. As of yet, I really can think of barely anything policy-oriented that redeems Joe. I will admit that our allies no longer laughing at us is nice. But that's probably it. I appreciate the warming of relations with some of our closest allies, but I remain skeptical of his abilities to counter our allies. Furthermore his government spending has blown past even the voracious Obama, bone-chilling. And while he presents himself as someone who knows of President Obama's social short-comings (on immigration, criminal justice, etc.), he hasn't presented himself as someone who will do anything about said knowledge. I see deja vu on the horizon in terms of Obama's great invasions on constitutional rights as well. God help us the next four years. May Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, Justin Amash, Ron DeSantis, anybody, God anybody come save us. Well, anybody but...

5. Donald Trump, not just easily the worst President of the 21st century but also the worst President in American history. What were we thinking electing a Bankrupt Silver Spooner turned Reality TV star President? Probably just how bad the last guy was. (Remember the guy who just won the Bronze... yeah that clown, this is our cast of characters here. I need to say a Hail Mary.) Alas, it netted us a joker of tectonic proportions. I've yipped and yapped about each of the previous gentlemen's shortcomings, but they don't hold a candle to Mr. Trump. Let's start from the beginning. He actually began his Presidency charming me into thinking he could be ok. He began falling into the same trap as Bush - tax cuts and spending increases. But hey, a tax cut is something and maybe it's a sign that he could be reigned in by Congressional Republicans. Oh dear how wrong I was. Donald Trump fails and falls last in every category by his own merit (or lack thereof). It was not some predetermined grade in which I forced him to the bottom in each category. No, in an independent review of each candidate and each category, he falls to last place every. single. time. His attacks on the separation of powers and attempt to erase Congressional power of appropriate was the single greatest Presidential power grab in American history (yes that includes Jackson, FDR, and Patine's favorite Patriot Act from Golden Boy George). Of course his scandals galore make Clinton blush on the personal level and Obama envious on the administrative level. His wrecking ball attitude to world relations left us with fewer allies and emboldened enemies. His incredible knack for not knowing things (or just how to act like an adult in general) left us hilariously exposed for ridicule by our Allies (yes, they were laughing at us. Hell, I was laughing at us, only with tears coming down my face as well). His response to Covid borders on criminal negligence and everything his predecessors did in terms of infringements of rights he looked at and said "I like it, but I want it yuger." He took a great piece of the Bush I - Clinton legacy (NAFTA) and neutered it just to say he did something. He took thousands of immigrants and stripped them of their basic human rights, let alone those guaranteed by the Constitution. Trade Wars, Muslim Bans, Bump Stock Bans, Mexican Rapists, tear gas on peaceful protesters, extreme scandal, and global humiliation.

All of this, somehow, is not the half of what makes Donald Trump inexorably the worst President in American history. For Donald Trump is the only President in American history to declare open war on American democracy and the Republic its self. His tantrum which he threw in response to the results of the 2020 Presidential election, the self-pity and snot-filled tears which spewed from his vapid mouth were like the very armaments defending the White House turning inward and firing. And hell, it turns out we weren't half off from that actually happening. I'm really glad no one chose Trump as best for "relations with Congress" because the man sparked the attack on the Capitol since 1812. Four years of tearing down respect for the Constitution, for the Republic, for Democracy, for our fellow Americans and common humanity resulted in the gruesome display of confederate flags and Q worshippers invading the hallowed halls of Congress. It resulted in furred conspiracy theories taking hold of the floor of the United States Senate. Shots fired in the Capitol and people, officers, patriots dead in its wake. It made him the second President ever to be impeached, an honor I pray he shares all by his lonesome for the rest of American history. 

Donald Trump was elected for one reason - his narcissitic desire for fame. From fame he derived power. And with his power he tore asunder the very underpinnings of the American Republic. Any single American President would look like a saint next to him. Even Buchanan just stood by as open insurrection sprung out under him. Trump was there shouting it forward it from the box seats. He will forever be the worst person to hold the office of President. He will forever be the worst performing President in American history. And he will forever be unique in just how terrible he was. And if history should ever prove me wrong in those predictions, May God Save the United States of America.

Last place.

We just had a private conversation on this in Discord where I went through in detail. But I broadly agree. Some points of difference when it comes to Obama and Biden's placement. Potentially Bush's even but your in depth response has given me more insight to put more thought into this myself! It's a hard poll, the fact that Clinton is here throws me off a bit and the top 2 for me can change depending on the day. That's why I've sat this one out haha. 

[vcczar]

3 minutes ago, Zenobiyl said:

I’m very bummed Bush Sr isnt on this list, because he is without a doubt one of the most underrated presidents in modern history. Won the Gulf War, won the Cold War, helped set the stage for the Clinton deficit reduction by raising taxes. He was a savvy operator who had experience and skill that just didn’t translate into persuading the voters. Clinton is easily the best of the options available, but I still think he isn’t quite as good as Bush Sr. was.

He wasn’t president during any part of the 21st century. 

[Zenobiyl]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

He wasn’t president during any part of the 21st century. 

😔

[vcczar]

21 minutes ago, Patine said:

 

He didn't even hold any Government posts, not even seemingly advisory, or any KNOWN role with his former - to be nice - "associates," in the CIA, in the 21st Century. He co-owned a couple football teams, at best, I believe.

Are you going to take the poll?

[SilentLiberty]

11 hours ago, Patine said:

When it cools off here in a few hours.

How about now?

[vcczar]

1 hour ago, SilentLiberty said:

How about now?

@Patine