vcczar Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Using C-Span's 10 categories, here's how I would have done the ranking had they approached me. Here's my top 5 by category and my bottom president in each category: Public Persuasion: FDR, Lincoln, T Roosevelt, Reagan, Jefferson, Jackson. I agree that Andrew Johnson is dead last in this category. My ranking moves Washington and JFK out of the top 5. Crisis Leadership: FDR, Lincoln, Washington, Wilson, Jackson. I agree with Buchanan as last. My ranking moves FDR to #1 and moves T Roosevelt and Truman out of the top 5. Economic Management: Washington, FDR, Clinton, Obama, Wilson. I agree with Hoover as last. My ranking is much different than the experts. I take Lincoln, T Roosevelt, out of the top 5. Obama and Wilson are moved in. No president has been economically perfect. FDR and Obama are aided by presiding during rebounds that transitioned into long-lasting economic growth. Washington created out economic system. Clinton is the only two term president with no real economic maladies. Wilson saw the transition of the US becoming the financial center of the world over the UK as it becomes the top creditor nation, a position it holds until Reagan. Moral Authority: Lincoln, T Roosevelt, Washington, Carter, Obama. I agree with Trump as last. I moved FDR and Eisenhower out and moved up Obama and Carter by two, but put Carter ahead of Obama. International Relations: FDR, Washington, T Roosevelt, Truman, Reagan. I disagree with Buchanan as last, so I pick GW Bush. It was between him and LBJ. I moved Lincoln and Eisenhower out of the top 5 and moved Truman and Reagan in. Administrative Skills: Lincoln, FDR, Washington, T Roosevelt, LBJ. I disagree with Trump as last, thinking A Johnson was worse. I moved Eisenhower out of the top 5 and moved LBJ in by moving him up 1 spot. Relations with Congress: Jefferson, Washington, LBJ, FDR, Lincoln. I agree with A Johnson as last. I kept the top 5 but moved Jefferson to the front. Vision/Setting an Agenda: Lincoln, FDR, T Roosevelt, Jefferson, LBJ. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Washington and Reagan from the top 5 and put in Jefferson and LBJ who were in the top 10. Pursued Equal Justice for All: Lincoln, LBJ, Obama, Truman, Grant. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Carter for Grant but think this ranking is about right. Outside of this top 5, it's hard to say that any president made huge efforts to pursue equal justice. Performance within Context of Times: Lincoln, Washington, FDR, T Roosevelt, Reagan. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Truman for Reagan. Truman was viewed as a failure during his time in office, so I'm not sure how he can rank highly here. Reagan was a superstar as president and didn't slide until his post-presidency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 1 minute ago, vcczar said: Using C-Span's 10 categories, here's how I would have done the ranking had they approached me. Here's my top 5 by category and my bottom president in each category: Public Persuasion: FDR, Lincoln, T Roosevelt, Reagan, Jefferson, Jackson. I agree that Andrew Johnson is dead last in this category. My ranking moves Washington and JFK out of the top 5. Crisis Leadership: FDR, Lincoln, Washington, Wilson, Jackson. I agree with Buchanan as last. My ranking moves FDR to #1 and moves T Roosevelt and Truman out of the top 5. Economic Management: Washington, FDR, Clinton, Obama, Wilson. I agree with Hoover as last. My ranking is much different than the experts. I take Lincoln, T Roosevelt, out of the top 5. Obama and Wilson are moved in. No president has been economically perfect. FDR and Obama are aided by presiding during rebounds that transitioned into long-lasting economic growth. Washington created out economic system. Clinton is the only two term president with no real economic maladies. Wilson saw the transition of the US becoming the financial center of the world over the UK as it becomes the top creditor nation, a position it holds until Reagan. Moral Authority: Lincoln, T Roosevelt, Washington, Carter, Obama. I agree with Trump as last. I moved FDR and Eisenhower out and moved up Obama and Carter by two, but put Carter ahead of Obama. International Relations: FDR, Washington, T Roosevelt, Truman, Reagan. I disagree with Buchanan as last, so I pick GW Bush. It was between him and LBJ. I moved Lincoln and Eisenhower out of the top 5 and moved Truman and Reagan in. Administrative Skills: Lincoln, FDR, Washington, T Roosevelt, LBJ. I disagree with Trump as last, thinking A Johnson was worse. I moved Eisenhower out of the top 5 and moved LBJ in by moving him up 1 spot. Relations with Congress: Jefferson, Washington, LBJ, FDR, Lincoln. I agree with A Johnson as last. I kept the top 5 but moved Jefferson to the front. Vision/Setting an Agenda: Lincoln, FDR, T Roosevelt, Jefferson, LBJ. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Washington and Reagan from the top 5 and put in Jefferson and LBJ who were in the top 10. Pursued Equal Justice for All: Lincoln, LBJ, Obama, Truman, Grant. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Carter for Grant but think this ranking is about right. Outside of this top 5, it's hard to say that any president made huge efforts to pursue equal justice. Performance within Context of Times: Lincoln, Washington, FDR, T Roosevelt, Reagan. I agree with Buchanan as last. I took out Truman for Reagan. Truman was viewed as a failure during his time in office, so I'm not sure how he can rank highly here. Reagan was a superstar as president and didn't slide until his post-presidency. Public Persuasion: Why is Washington out of the top 5? Crisis Leadership: Why is Truman out? Why is Jackson in the top 5? Was it his economic policies? Economic Management: Hoover certainly should be low, though I do wonder if he got blamed too much. Jackson might be high in my list. Obama was OK, but I question if his policies on economic put him in the top 5. Moral Authority: Much as I dislike Carter's policies, I certainly believe he's high on this. International Relations: Bush is worse than Trump? It seems that Buchanan is literally one of the most unlucky Presidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Timur said: Public Persuasion: Why is Washington out of the top 5? Crisis Leadership: Why is Truman out? Why is Jackson in the top 5? Was it his economic policies? Economic Management: Hoover certainly should be low, though I do wonder if he got blamed too much. Jackson might be high in my list. Obama was OK, but I question if his policies on economic put him in the top 5. Moral Authority: Much as I dislike Carter's policies, I certainly believe he's high on this. International Relations: Bush is worse than Trump? It seems that Buchanan is literally one of the most unlucky Presidents. 1. In my opinion, to be top 5 in public persuasion you need to be vocal. He was what I would call a relatively inactive president, which has its own merits but it doesn't aim to persuade. I'd still put him in the top 10. 2. Truman somewhat blundered Korea. His transitioning of the US from "nothing to fear but fear itself" to a National Security State, I think, was the wrong direction. He kind of forced the Cold War, which might have been avoidable to some degree. Jackson's one great moment was his handling of the Nullification Crisis. He basically squashed a potential early civil war. 3. Jackson's economic policies were a disaster. It led to the Panic of 1837. The economy didn't go downward with Obama. It went upward and Trump coasted on the Obama economy. We really haven't had that many truly great economic presidents, so he kind of just ended up there. Most of the presidents have so many conflicting economic legacies. 4. Yeah. He would be #1 if we considered post-presidencies. 5. Yeah, GW Bush unilaterally went into Iraq and strained relations with many countries for years. His Iraq War--specifically the occupation phase--was a disaster and his War on Terror might be unwinnable. He sort of made things worse in the Middle East and Central Asia. 6. Buchanan wasn't unlucky. He just made the wrong decision at almost every turn. He was also really petty, which didn't help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 1 minute ago, vcczar said: 2. Truman somewhat blundered Korea. How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Timur said: How? It wasn’t resolved. It’s technically still going. His goal was to knock the Communists out of Korea. He saved half the peninsula but lost the other half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Just now, Patine said: Let's all take a moment to thank this toxic and aberrant legacy of Truman's... I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Patine said: Well, why don't you phrase it so he comes up smelling like roses? He would not smell like roses or sulfur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Timur said: He would not smell like roses or sulfur. BTW, FDR's working with Stalin will always be a blot on his legacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, Patine said: The Cold War was a dirty war, with no heroes, no good guys, and no moral or ideological higher ground, which created a LOT of high profile criminals worthy of Nuremberg- or ICT-calibre trial 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 What's so bad about Harry? Hes much better than the whimp of a President we would've gotten in Henry Wallace. Even I would've backed Truman over Dewey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Just now, Patine said: I don't deny that one. I walk past the oldest Holodomor Monument in the world in Churchill Square in downtown Edmonton everyday. But as atrocious and monstrous and horrible as it is, it wasn't part of the Cold War. Or are you insinuating I've been giving a higher moral ground to the Soviets, which is something I have NEVER said? It was made by the same people who were in charge during the Cold War. I'm disagreeing that the two regimes are in any way similar. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Just now, Patine said: I don't deny that one. I walk past the oldest Holodomor Monument in the world in Churchill Square in downtown Edmonton everyday. But as atrocious and monstrous and horrible as it is, it wasn't part of the Cold War. Or are you insinuating I've been giving a higher moral ground to the Soviets, which is something I have NEVER said? Maybe he's accusing you of giving equal footing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Patine said: I think you misread that. I meant more proxy tyrants in comparison. That Rhee was no better than Kim, that Chiang was no better than Mao, that Nguyen was no better than Ho, that Lon was no better Pol, than Mputo was no better than the Angolan and Congo-Brazzaville Presidents he was fighting, that Batista was no better than Castro, that the Samozas were no better than Ortega, in terms of their mindsets, viewpoints, ideologies, and what they were FULLY WILLING to do. OPPORTUNITY, TIME IN POWER, and REAL CONTROL OF THEIR COUNTRIES, or PARTS THEREOF were among the biggest factors of who ended up with bigger body counts and more atrocities, ultimately. And, ultimately, far more benevolent domestic standards in the West still have their Governments put to shade when they prop up tyrants as horrid as the Soviet ones they oppose (and again, to Hell with the Government the people of those Third World Countries want). Is my point any clearer, there? Chiang was a horrible person and should be condemned, but he didn't kill tens of millions of people like Zedong did. You can disagree about what people would do if they had the power to do so, but the judgment rests based on what they actually did. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Patine said: That Rhee was no better than Kim I disagree. He was a tyrant, but not as bad as Kim. He didn't start the Korean War that caused so many deaths. He also gave into the protests against his regime. Certainly weaker than Kim. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Patine said: I actually agree with Kim Koo (also spelt Kim Gu) on this issue. When he said, it wasn't Rhee, nor Kim, nor ANY Korean. It was the, "betrayal and act of war against the Korean Nation and People that was the secret partition agreement between the United States and Soviet Union. Koreans should not fight Koreans on the puppet strings of these betrayers, but unite against both of the occupiers and rebuild the Korean Empire!" I understand he was a radical, but I think he has a point here (outside of the sabre-rattling parts, maybe). Kim Koo is very much admired in South Korea. The US was pretty careless in its handling of Korea (why, it is said that the Secretary of State asked his aide to find where Korea was on the map). Edited July 4, 2021 by Timur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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