vcczar Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 I was thinking we could try to create hypothetical legislation on some partisan issues. This how I think we should go about, we should first acknowledge the reasons why Democrats and Republicans have the views they have on the issue and the fears that they have if an extreme left or right wing solution is found. So let's see if we can do this. We need to remedy the following things: how do we define life in a way that both applies to science and theology? What if giving birth to the child will result in the death of the mother? What about the cases of rape? If forced to bear the child, should the costs of giving birth, raising the child, and educating the child come from the other birth parent? Should they also bear the financial responsibility for mental health treatment for rape? If this birth parent can't afford to pay this or some of it, is it subsidized by the state or federal government or other? Things that could be included in legislation that could significantly decrease abortions Significantly decrease the cost of or provide free birth control Sex education and free birth control at schools starting when children reach puberty Significantly decrease the costs of child support. Many of those that seek abortion are from poor families, are single mothers, make low wages or are underemployed/unemployed. Increase the number of orphanages, allow major tax breaks or other incentives for being foster parents, etc. regarding housing options for children born to a parent that can't afford them. Lower the costs for mental health services Lower the costs for services dealing with drug and alcohol abuse Lower the costs for raising children born with costly mental and physical disabilities. This may need to include adult services for when these children grow up. Lower medical insurance costs so that giving birth costs less than having an abortion. Should the federal government be allowed to provide abortion services on federal property, even this federal land is within state borders a state that greatly restricts abortion? Am I leaving any other serious questions out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cenzonico Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 At the end of the day it's only a vocal minority of folks that advocate for a total ban with zero exceptions and abortion on demand. Something like an abortion window starting from 5 weeks and ending at 25 weeks, with perhaps allowing it after 25 if due to medical concerns is simple and would satisfy people who aren't following partisan dogma, i.e. most regular Americans. From there we could focus on proper sex education so the need of abortion can be lessened in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, vcczar said: I was thinking we could try to create hypothetical legislation on some partisan issues. This how I think we should go about, we should first acknowledge the reasons why Democrats and Republicans have the views they have on the issue and the fears that they have if an extreme left or right wing solution is found. So let's see if we can do this. We need to remedy the following things: how do we define life in a way that both applies to science and theology? What if giving birth to the child will result in the death of the mother? What about the cases of rape? If forced to bear the child, should the costs of giving birth, raising the child, and educating the child come from the other birth parent? Should they also bear the financial responsibility for mental health treatment for rape? If this birth parent can't afford to pay this or some of it, is it subsidized by the state or federal government or other? Things that could be included in legislation that could significantly decrease abortions Significantly decrease the cost of or provide free birth control Sex education and free birth control at schools starting when children reach puberty Significantly decrease the costs of child support. Many of those that seek abortion are from poor families, are single mothers, make low wages or are underemployed/unemployed. Increase the number of orphanages, allow major tax breaks or other incentives for being foster parents, etc. regarding housing options for children born to a parent that can't afford them. Lower the costs for mental health services Lower the costs for services dealing with drug and alcohol abuse Lower the costs for raising children born with costly mental and physical disabilities. This may need to include adult services for when these children grow up. Lower medical insurance costs so that giving birth costs less than having an abortion. Should the federal government be allowed to provide abortion services on federal property, even this federal land is within state borders a state that greatly restricts abortion? Am I leaving any other serious questions out? how do we define life in a way that both applies to science and theology? Human life is created when there exists a unique DNA that has never existed before, and will never exist again. From the moment of conception. What if giving birth to the child will result in the death of the mother? This is an extremely small minority of abortions (some studies say less than 1%), but every abortion restriction law passed that I know of has these exceptions and should have them. What about the cases of rape? If forced to bear the child, should the costs of giving birth, raising the child, and educating the child come from the other birth parent? Should they also bear the financial responsibility for mental health treatment for rape? If this birth parent can't afford to pay this or some of it, is it subsidized by the state or federal government or other? Based and yes, the rapist should be forced to pay child support. I would support a subsidy, but it's probably a state issue. Significantly decrease the cost of or provide free birth control - It would depend on how we did this. Sex education and free birth control at schools starting when children reach puberty - Perhaps, but I see this as more of a state issue. Significantly decrease the costs of child support. Many of those that seek abortion are from poor families, are single mothers, make low wages or are underemployed/unemployed. - I would support universal Pre-K, free school lunches at public schools, and child tax credits. I also support allowing pregnant women to claim their unborn as a dependent (or two, three etc.) Increase the number of orphanages, allow major tax breaks or other incentives for being foster parents, etc. regarding housing options for children born to a parent that can't afford them. - Disagree with first part, but agree with tax credit part. Reform the orphanage/adoption/foster system. There are up to 36 families waiting to adopt per kid in the adoption system. Find a way to make it more efficient. Lower the costs for mental health services - would depend how we did this Lower the costs for services dealing with drug and alcohol abuse - would depend how we did this Lower the costs for raising children born with costly mental and physical disabilities. This may need to include adult services for when these children grow up. - I agree. Every life has value. Don't ask Iceland why they have no down-syndrome children. Lower medical insurance costs so that giving birth costs less than having an abortion. - Financially speaking, I agree. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator Taco Cat Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, DakotaHale said: Human life is created when there exists a unique DNA that has never existed before, and will never exist again. From the moment of conception. It has been spoken! Twins aren't real and those who deny it shall be summarily executed. Edited September 14, 2023 by Imperator Taco Cat All hail Supreme Leader Dakota Hale! (https://www.politicslounge.com/topic/1234-resignation/?do=findComment&comment=39553&_rid=222) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewt Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 3 hours ago, Cenzonico said: abortion window starting from 5 weeks and ending at 25 weeks What do you mean by window? Are you just suggesting the trimester framework but with a different time table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVProgressive Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 (edited) How do we define life in a way that both applies to science and theology? The science on this is settled, life begins at conception/implantation. There isn't a serious biologist on the planet who would give any other answer. What if giving birth to the child will result in the death of the mother? There is not a state in this country that bans therapeutic abortions, and I think a majority of pro-lifers would agree that it's acceptable for a mother to terminate a pregnancy when her life is in immediate danger. And as others have said, this represents such a fringe amount of abortions that it's frankly silly that we give it so much thought. What about the cases of rape? If forced to bear the child, should the costs of giving birth, raising the child, and educating the child come from the other birth parent? Should they also bear the financial responsibility for mental health treatment for rape? If this birth parent can't afford to pay this or some of it, is it subsidized by the state or federal government or other? I support the federal government providing/funding all of these services in general, doubly so when the recipient is a survivor of the worst crime that a person can have done to them. Ideally, the rapist would be executed, but if we're going to let them live I suppose I'd support forcing them to help financially support the people they've harmed. Things that could be included in legislation that could significantly decrease abortions Significantly decrease the cost of or provide free birth control - Birth control is honestly pretty cheap as is, and with a wide variety of available methods. I guess the best way to further reduce the barrier for use would be to bring in a public option so that people can purchase cheap insurance from the government, and from there get a prescription for birth control. Sex education and free birth control at schools starting when children reach puberty - I support comprehensive sex education, and believe the federal government can/should encourage states to adopt such curriculum, but I stop short at providing high schoolers condoms, and plan b. Significantly decrease the costs of child support. Many of those that seek abortion are from poor families, are single mothers, make low wages or are underemployed/unemployed. There's a lot of things we can do to alleviate the effect/pull people out of poverty in general, but when it comes to specifically policies designed around making parentage more affordable, I would support universal pre-K, parental leave for both parents, child tax credits, free breakfasts, and lunches at schools, as well as vouchers for food, transportation, clothing, housing and daycare. Increase the number of orphanages, allow major tax breaks or other incentives for being foster parents, etc. regarding housing options for children born to a parent that can't afford them. The foster system is so riddled with abuse, and corruption that I honestly think the whole thing should be abolished, and replaced by orphanages run by the government which would also give us the best chance at ensuring these children grow up into good citizens. Lower the costs for mental health services. I support including mental health care under Medicaid, which is what I assume you mean, reducing costs for the patient, not the provider. Lower the costs for services dealing with drug and alcohol abuse. I definitely support a federal, secular alternative to AA, and similar programs for other forms of substance abuse. Lower the costs for raising children born with costly mental and physical disabilities. This may need to include adult services for when these children grow up. Disability is such a broad category that I can't give a glib, universal answer, but for the most part the added financial cost of caring for a disabled child can be managed by increasing funding for, and access to healthcare, increasing funding for education including programs that help disabled children transition to adult hood such as behavioral, life skills, or occupational therapy as well as more general SPED programs. I'd also support increasing SSDI payments, and other support for parents caring for a disabled adult. Lower medical insurance costs so that giving birth costs less than having an abortion. The main way we can do that is by increasing access to healthcare Should the federal government be allowed to provide abortion services on federal property, even this federal land is within state borders a state that greatly restricts abortion? No, post offices should not be turned into baby murder factories. Am I leaving any other serious questions out? I swear there was something I wanted to bring up when I started this, but now I can't remember. Maybe that I support increasing access to parenting classes. Oh well, I'm probably forgetting something in my answers anyway. Edited February 13 by WVProgressive 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cenzonico Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 2 hours ago, jnewt said: What do you mean by window? Are you just suggesting the trimester framework but with a different time table? The latter essentially Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 I would not vote for a bill that allows abortion in the 2nd or 3rd trimesters. And a 12 week max to me is still shaky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 5 hours ago, Imperator Taco Cat said: It has been spoken! Twins aren't real and those who deny it shall be summarily executed. Based edit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted September 15, 2023 Author Share Posted September 15, 2023 42 minutes ago, DakotaHale said: I would not vote for a bill that allows abortion in the 2nd or 3rd trimesters. And a 12 week max to me is still shaky. Yeah, and most liberals won't vote for a bill that restricts it to the first trimester (12 weeks). I'm personally flexible on the issues because I'm not a woman, don't have children, and am a little unschooled on the internal difference between 1 week of pregnancy or 36 weeks of pregnancy. I'd say the moderate hot spot would be 14 weeks max, but if I were a legislator, I could be compelled to accept 12 weeks, so long as the bill includes satisfactory answers to all those questions listed above, possibly allowing reasonable ways to opt out of that 12 weeks for exceptional reasons. Something along those lines. I'd certainly have to read up more about all of this. I think if I were a woman, I'd be pissed at myself for thinking 14 weeks is a good hot spot. I'm saying this as a childless guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted September 15, 2023 Author Share Posted September 15, 2023 I'll wait for more people to respond to this before moving to the next stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 2 hours ago, vcczar said: I'll wait for more people to respond to this before moving to the next stage. I'm happy with me and @WVProgressive getting to create the bill lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezi Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 21 hours ago, vcczar said: I was thinking we could try to create hypothetical legislation on some partisan issues. This how I think we should go about, we should first acknowledge the reasons why Democrats and Republicans have the views they have on the issue and the fears that they have if an extreme left or right wing solution is found. So let's see if we can do this. We need to remedy the following things: how do we define life in a way that both applies to science and theology? I don't have an opinion on this. What if giving birth to the child will result in the death of the mother? Nobody serious thinks abortion should still be banned in this scenario. What about the cases of rape? If forced to bear the child, should the costs of giving birth, raising the child, and educating the child come from the other birth parent? Should they also bear the financial responsibility for mental health treatment for rape? If this birth parent can't afford to pay this or some of it, is it subsidized by the state or federal government or other? Any rape victim should be allowed a government subsidized abortion, and if they choose to give birth, make the rapist give child support. Things that could be included in legislation that could significantly decrease abortions Significantly decrease the cost of or provide free birth control Aye Sex education and free birth control at schools starting when children reach puberty Aye Significantly decrease the costs of child support. Many of those that seek abortion are from poor families, are single mothers, make low wages or are underemployed/unemployed. Obviously this would be good, but you can't magically solve this. Increase the number of orphanages, allow major tax breaks or other incentives for being foster parents, etc. regarding housing options for children born to a parent that can't afford them. Sure Lower the costs for mental health services Sure if you have a realistic way to do it. Lower the costs for services dealing with drug and alcohol abuse Sure if you have a realistic way to do it. Lower the costs for raising children born with costly mental and physical disabilities. This may need to include adult services for when these children grow up. Obviously this would be good, but you can't magically solve this. Lower medical insurance costs so that giving birth costs less than having an abortion. Sure if you have a realistic way to do it. Should the federal government be allowed to provide abortion services on federal property, even this federal land is within state borders a state that greatly restricts abortion? Yeah Am I leaving any other serious questions out? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 (edited) I might add some of my own stuff here later but I largely agree with what @WVProgressive and @DakotaHale are saying. Especially concerning the definition of life. A lot of radical pro-choicers, and frankly, nihilists like to push the notion that an embryo or anything in the womb isn't life until it comes out... that is simply not true at all. You don't need to just read the Bible or whatever religion you are to know when life begins. The science is clear for those who aren't religious. As WVP said, life begins at conception. There is a huge scientific consensus on this. Don't take my word for it though, do the research. There is so much hypocrisy among the attitudes concerning "What is a life?" where many pro-choicers won't apply the logic to humans because of their carelessness but will apply it elsewhere to say; animals. Edited September 15, 2023 by Pringles 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezi Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 My view, essentially. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pius XIII Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 For the most part, I have to agree with Pringles, but if I have to squint real hard to be "bi-partisan" on this issue, then I would consider that to be banning abortion after 15 weeks, which a majority of Americans agree with if you tend to put your faith in polls (https://harvardharrispoll.com/key-results-june/). I think a restoration of the Hyde Amendment is also important. I am sure that on principle, most moderates would agree that it is morally wrong to force Americans to fund a practice that they believe is the equivalent to murder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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