vcczar Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 JB Gordon is more famous as one of greatest Civil War generals. He was one of the few remaining great Southern generals in the late war. However, he sort of wrecks his prestige by being the typical Reconstruction-Era Southern Dem racist. In 1868, he was giving a speech to blacks while they were political empowered because of Reconstruction legislation, possibly fearing blacks might Jim Crow whites or something. In the speech, he promised harmony if Blacks were peaceful, but that if they weren't, GA whites would exterminate them. Nice guy, isn't he? In 1871, as the Force Bills were combatting the KKK, Gordon was compelled to respond if he was a KKK member. He was evasive and said only that he was heading a white organization to preserve the peace. Many contemporaries and many scholars today believe Gordon was secretly the head of the state KKK, and if not, he was leading a similar paramilitary white-only organization. As a kid, I knew of Gordon only as a fascinating CW Gen, but I now think he's pretty disgusting. His actions: Gordon, John B. 1868 Threatens a black crowd that their race will be exterminated if they ever threaten a race war Gordon, John B. 1868 Fmr CSA major general runs for Gov of GA as Dem but loses to Reconstruction GOPer Gordon, John B. 1871 Alleged to be secretly the head of the GA KKK at this time Gordon, John B. 1872 One of the Bourbon Triumvirate in GA, advocating a "New South" to industrialize and modernize the region Gordon, John B. 1873 Fmr CSA maj gen becomes US Sen Gordon, John B. 1876 in on Wormley House Bargain regarding Hayes Gordon, John B. 1879 1st former Confederate to preside over US Sen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 1 hour ago, vcczar said: As a kid, I knew of Gordon only as a fascinating CW Gen Yeah same here. For me kid means around 2012 or so when I started reading about the Civil War, but still these are childhood memories. Civil War Generals and especially those of the Confederacy represented for me courage, virtue and honor because of their willingness to put their lives on the line for their home states. Lee being my number one hero, while I had Gordon also in the mix of the more intriguing people, especially because he became Gov of GA after the war. However, among the Generals I never really liked Nathan Bedford Forest because he was the Grand Wizard of the KKK, which is gross. Loving your home state with all it's flaws like poverty and agricultural backwardness more than the perfect Union clicked with me. I haven't seen the Civil War as a fight to defend slavery and there would also be nothing honorable about that. I had hoped slavery would have faded out eventually even in the South. Romanticising the Civil War occurred for me around the same time when I still thought there is something desirable about going to war for your country. I wouldn't do that anymore and would now easily choose living in the industrialized North far from the chaos during the Civil War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwa777 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 By the way i said favorable cause of his civil war service 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted October 30 Author Share Posted October 30 10 minutes ago, Bushwa777 said: By the way i said favorable cause of his civil war service His Civil War service isn't once of his actions. Since these polls are about US politicians, I don't include service for time spent fighting against our country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted October 30 Author Share Posted October 30 22 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: omanticising the Civil War occurred for me around the same time when I still thought there is something desirable about going to war for your country. Yeah, I used to romanticize the Civil War as a kid in Texas. This was because I didn't really know the details of slavery. Slavery just seemed like a cold event of something that happened. At some point, I developed a greater sense of empathy as I read more about it. I also didn't know many black people growing up. As I met more in college and learned more about their history through my own studies, the more repulsed I became about the Confederacy and those who fought to support it. I can't even play as the CSA in computer games now, and I can't bring myself to add them as a playable entity in AMPU. Even if the CSA had abolished slavery, they likely would have had slavery in all but name, so long as plantations existed. Then they would have forced them to do slave-like work in factories. The former slaves in the CSA would have had no political rights, civil rights, etc. This would have created a lot of domestic tension and possible outside intervention. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 34 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: Yeah same here. For me kid means around 2012 or so when I started reading about the Civil War, but still these are childhood memories. Civil War Generals and especially those of the Confederacy represented for me courage, virtue and honor because of their willingness to put their lives on the line for their home states. Lee being my number one hero, while I had Gordon also in the mix of the more intriguing people, especially because he became Gov of GA after the war. However, among the Generals I never really liked Nathan Bedford Forest because he was the Grand Wizard of the KKK, which is gross. Loving your home state with all it's flaws like poverty and agricultural backwardness more than the perfect Union clicked with me. I haven't seen the Civil War as a fight to defend slavery and there would also be nothing honorable about that. I had hoped slavery would have faded out eventually even in the South. Romanticising the Civil War occurred for me around the same time when I still thought there is something desirable about going to war for your country. I wouldn't do that anymore and would now easily choose living in the industrialized North far from the chaos during the Civil War. 4 minutes ago, vcczar said: Yeah, I used to romanticize the Civil War as a kid in Texas. This was because I didn't really know the details of slavery. Slavery just seemed like a cold event of something that happened. At some point, I developed a greater sense of empathy as I read more about it. I also didn't know many black people growing up. As I met more in college and learned more about their history through my own studies, the more repulsed I became about the Confederacy and those who fought to support it. I can't even play as the CSA in computer games now, and I can't bring myself to add them as a playable entity in AMPU. Even if the CSA had abolished slavery, they likely would have had slavery in all but name, so long as plantations existed. Then they would have forced them to do slave-like work in factories. The former slaves in the CSA would have had no political rights, civil rights, etc. This would have created a lot of domestic tension and possible outside intervention. As someone from the first state that seceded, I grew up hearing a lot of people around me saying the Civil War wasn't only fought over slavery. I also grew up hearing these people trying to paint Lincoln as this tyrant who hated Southerners and was harsh on them. The stuff I heard about Lincoln couldn't be further from the truth. And at least in my family, I grew up as an admirer of Lincoln. I remember when Lincoln in 2012 came out and we rented it. I was an interesting kid who was able to watch stuff like that lol and I loved it. To add my two cents: - Those people are "correct" that it wasn't only fought over slavery, but c'mon... that's just being a pedant. - I wouldn't go as far in my hatred of a literal lost cause to say I couldn't play them in a video game... I've done plenty of things in video games I'd never do in real life lol. - There are some decent figures who were Confederates who were honorable people and changed rapidly after the war. James Longstreet, PGT Beauregard, and this might be controversial but General Lee. - Longstreet and Beauregard supported efforts to enfranchise African Americans after the Civil War. Longstreet led a militia against a white supremacist paramilitary group. Beauregard took a more business route concerning aiding African Americans in Louisiana. Also advocating for their suffrage. - Concerning Lee, I'm aware that he owned slaves, even if he disagreed with the practice from a moral and philosophical viewpoint. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike him for that. However, I always admire the honor between him and General Grant, especially in their letters at Appomattox Courthouse. Fighting for your home state is a concept we perhaps cannot understand today, but I certainly understand his reasoning. I think it's hilarious when all of the people who just hate him rabidly and advocate the removal of anything related to him fail to realize he was offered command of the Union Army. I also think the people who worship Lee as a lost cause myth are just as ignorant in historical matters. Lee wasn't this perfect General. His cockiness at Gettysburg was the turning point of the Civil War. However, all of these men are dead and judged. Nuff' said. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 11 hours ago, vcczar said: I can't even play as the CSA in computer games now, and I can't bring myself to add them as a playable entity in AMPU. Here I have to disagree. Video games are just video games, so I don't see a problem with that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwa777 Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 12 hours ago, vcczar said: I can't bring myself to add them as a playable entity in AMPU. Well I think that would be cool but since Anthony will never have the game out anyway (cause somehow sitting on his ass he ran out of money) the point is moot 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pius XIII Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 “Lincoln” is a great Civil War movie… just not as good as “Gettysburg” haha. The US Civil War will always be an interesting topic of conversation. Going beyond the “reason the war was started” (slavery), the people involved are just as fascinating to learn about. There were leaders with admirable traits on both sides- good (Chamberlain, Longstreet, Armistead), bad (Butler, Floyd) and controversial (Lee, Burnside) and I think AMPU can be a fantastic gateway for people to learn about these folks- I just can’t think of how that would be decently implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 54 minutes ago, Pius XIII said: “Lincoln” is a great Civil War movie… just not as good as “Gettysburg” haha. The US Civil War will always be an interesting topic of conversation. Going beyond the “reason the war was started” (slavery), the people involved are just as fascinating to learn about. There were leaders with admirable traits on both sides- good (Chamberlain, Longstreet, Armistead), bad (Butler, Floyd) and controversial (Lee, Burnside) and I think AMPU can be a fantastic gateway for people to learn about these folks- I just can’t think of how that would be decently implemented. I'm definitely not adding a playability of the Confederacy. The game is A More Perfect UNION. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwa777 Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 2 minutes ago, vcczar said: I'm definitely not adding a playability of the Confederacy. The game is A More Perfect UNION. Per Anthony it is Union Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pius XIII Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 53 minutes ago, vcczar said: I'm definitely not adding a playability of the Confederacy. The game is A More Perfect UNION. I’m not advocating for a playable Confederacy, I am just saying that I think the game could be a great way to learn about people on both sides of the conflict. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 1 hour ago, vcczar said: I'm definitely not adding a playability of the Confederacy. The game is A More Perfect UNION. Do I have your permission to start working on A More Perfect Confederacy? It would start in 1865 with a white peace of the Civil War... 😛 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcczar Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 7 minutes ago, Pringles said: Do I have your permission to start working on A More Perfect Confederacy? It would start in 1865 with a white peace of the Civil War... 😛 I don't know what to say. I feel that I can't forbid you to do it, but I certainly don't approve. I don't give permission, but I won't stop you. Let's say that. I also won't allow you to use AMPU events, etc. in connection with a playtest for that game, but you are free to model the game on my game. I really don't like the idea of that kind of game because it's rather heartless to have a game focused on an entirely slavocratic government. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 10 minutes ago, vcczar said: I don't know what to say. I feel that I can't forbid you to do it, but I certainly don't approve. I don't give permission, but I won't stop you. Let's say that. I also won't allow you to use AMPU events, etc. in connection with a playtest for that game, but you are free to model the game on my game. I really don't like the idea of that kind of game because it's rather heartless to have a game focused on an entirely slavocratic government. Was just kidding anyway. 😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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