The return of the right-wing in Europe

[DakotaHale]

Thoughts? We see Hungary, Sweden, Italy, and now even the Dutch have elected right-tp-far-right parties. Le Pen edges closer in every French election and even Conor McGregor is rumored to be considering running against the "soft" Irish PM or President or something. Is this a reaction to the 2015 migrant crisis or something else? Is this good, bad, or both? Discuss

[vcczar]

4 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

Thoughts? We see Hungary, Sweden, Italy, and now even the Dutch have elected right-tp-far-right parties. Le Pen edges closer in every French election and even Conor McGregor is rumored to be considering running against the "soft" Irish PM or President or something. Is this a reaction to the 2015 migrant crisis or something else? Is this good, bad, or both? Discuss

I wish I knew more about European current events. Right wing parties often gain strength because of nostalgia. If this is the factor here, then immigration/migrants could certainly be a factor.  Another factor, might be a perceived lack of international agency, with both the US and China kind of push the EU aside on the global stage. I'm also wondering if Russia's invasion of Ukraine could be a factor. Ukrainian nationalism is at an all-time high, perhaps it is churning out nationalism throughout Europe. 

Hungary and Italy of unpredictable economies, so a RW reaction seems like a thing there. French are becoming less French every decade. If you look at Marseille, it's heavily North African. I don't have an issue with it, but maybe the French do. I tend to like melting pots like NYC, Philadelphia, etc. The Netherlands might have similar issues. I think a RW Gov makes less sense in Sweden and Ireland--two nations who are hyperpowers in quality of life thanks to decades of progressive laws and thinkers. That said, their version of right-wing could be far left of our GOP in many ways. I'm not sure. Just my thoughts.

[Rezi]

American-backed regime change is necessary for the continent’s survival 

[ConservativeElector2]

7 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

Thoughts? We see Hungary, Sweden, Italy, and now even the Dutch have elected right-tp-far-right parties. Le Pen edges closer in every French election and even Conor McGregor is rumored to be considering running against the "soft" Irish PM or President or something. Is this a reaction to the 2015 migrant crisis or something else? Is this good, bad, or both? Discuss

Definitely a good development imho, but there's surely still potential for more. I think this is caused by the long-term effects of the 2015 migrant crisis. What we see now is what some already knew at the time it happened: the integration of these people into Western societies has not worked and likely will never work. Just look at Germany. Arabian clans are dominating the criminal underworld in larger cities. More and more riots and demonstrations are taking place and especially Jewish life is again threatened on a daily basis. Left-wing politicians ignore or belittle these problems and blatantly denounce those acknowledging these issues as far-right agitators. Additionally climate activists get more and more violent in their actions, gluing themselves to streets etc. Green politics seems more and more laughable due to this and many newspaper reports say the youth also turns to the right.

But don't be fooled, Meloni in Italy didn't turn out to be a loadstar. Immigration is still hitting hard and the EU also can't get their act together... border control is almost non-existent.

3 minutes ago, vcczar said:

If you look at Marseille, it's heavily North African. I don't have an issue with it, but maybe the French do.

From the newspaper reports I got to read, gang violence wreaks havoc in the streets of Marseille, which is definitely an issue.

5 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I think a RW Gov makes less sense in Sweden and Ireland--two nations who are hyperpowers in quality of life thanks to decades of progressive laws and thinkers. That said, their version of right-wing could be far left of our GOP in many ways. I'm not sure. Just my thoughts.

Gang violence in cities like Stockholm, Malmö or Göteborg has been an issue in Sweden for years now from what I hear. Overall out-of-control immigration is the main issue of concern for all those turning to the right recently. Conor McGregor's reaction in Ireland was caused by a knife stabbing attack by an Algerian immigrant on school or kindergarten children in Dublin last week.

Wilders campaigned left on social issues like social security or healthcare, but right-wing on immigration. Some say this is the way forward. We'll see.

[vcczar]

1 hour ago, ConservativeElector2 said:

Western societies has not worked and likely will never work. Just look at Germany. Arabian clans are dominating the criminal underworld in larger cities.

You sound like a lot of 19th century Americans who thought the same of Irish people, Italian people, Jewish people, black people, Slavic people, Hispanic people, Native American people, etc. The first two, possibly three generations, might not assimilate, but later generations do. Irish and Italians were notably connected to underground crime, leading to Americans to have the same backward assumptions that you are showing right here.

Sure it sucks for nativists the time being, but it will be normalized soon. Imagine if every Irish-American and Italian-American today wasn't considered a real American. Italians and Slavs weren't even considered "white" for decades. Benjamin Franklin thought poorly of Germans until Washington mention that their sons and grandsons will be Americans. 

 

[Pringles]

I think the rise of far-right populism around Europe is mainly due to the establishment parties in power being ineffectual at dealing with the migrant crisis, among other immigration issues. The irony, however, is that these far-right populist entities don't have a solution either other than tough rhetoric. Meloni is a good example. Media was saying Italy was over... and Fascism has returned. They don't consider the weird context that a lot of Italians have a hint of admiration for the likes of Mussolini. That isn't me endorsing them at all, but I think trying to have a contextual understanding is important before throwing harebrained accusations. 

I think the conflict in Gaza and the Hamas attack on October 7th also caused a more pronounced effect. @Edouard showed me a poll, I believe it was for France, but the voters' perceptions in his country on the "#CeasefireNow" or anti-Israeli crowd have been terrible PR for leftist parties. There are exceptions, such as the UK where Starmer is more levelheaded. 

I'll let Edouard talk about the rise of Le Pen. But I'm sure he will agree with me that the French Left has shot itself in the foot. Jean Luc Melenchon is now one of the least popular politicians in the country, with over 70% viewing him as more of a danger to the French Republic than Le Pen. Justifiably so when you consider his actions, cult of personality political apparatus, conspiracy theories, anti-Ukraine, etc. 

Le Pen on the other hand has pragmatically shifted her tone on key issues. Conceding to the left on matters of economic issues and social welfare, but retaining her firm brand of cultural right-wing policy propositions. Especially on immigration. 

There are notable pockets of Europe where there are exceptions to this trend though. Ireland is facing a lot of diplomatic backlash since they're openly anti-Israel. Greece is rewarding its center-right party against leftists. Economic woes are also a factor here. 

With that said, I'm not very worried because most Western European countries are strong democracies with good checks and balances. They'll keep each other, and themselves in check. I think it's important for people to not concede to dooming. It doesn't do anybody any good.

[Pringles]

1 hour ago, vcczar said:

You sound like a lot of 19th century Americans who thought the same of Irish people, Italian people, Jewish people, black people, Slavic people, Hispanic people, Native American people, etc. The first two, possibly three generations, might not assimilate, but later generations do. Irish and Italians were notably connected to underground crime, leading to Americans to have the same backward assumptions that you are showing right here.

Sure it sucks for nativists the time being, but it will be normalized soon. Imagine if every Irish-American and Italian-American today wasn't considered a real American. Italians and Slavs weren't even considered "white" for decades. Benjamin Franklin thought poorly of Germans until Washington mention that their sons and grandsons will be Americans. 

 

I don't disagree with you but I do think there is something to be said about the religious divides in play here. Concerning Muslim families immigrating to Europe and elsewhere. I'm generally very pro-immigration. But people coming to our country, attending our universities, and then when the October 7th massacre occurs plenty of our own citizens partake in this as well... the violent rioting, blocking of major roads, open display of anti-semitism. Political parties will need to start taking this seriously before it is too late. It is a two-way street as well. The rise of anti-semitism on the far left and far right is frankly horrifying. It deserves to be called out no matter who is displaying such acts of hatred. 

I have always felt assimilation is a key and necessary component of immigration. You're free to disagree with me but I would like you to note I say that as the son of an immigrant. I want people to come here and prosper, believe what they want to believe, but share our values of respect, liberty, democracy, and respect for our institutions. In turn, we respect their participation in our democracy and respect them as new Americans. What is ideal to anyone is generally not likely to become true. However, one clear thing becomes more apparent to me every day: the philosophy of mass multiculturalism has failed. 

[Edouard]

As an european I could provide some infos about the countries I know but in most of these countries yes the issue is the immigration crisis.

Europe has received a very high number of requests compared to the rest of the world at the exception of Lebanon and Turkey.

But another important factor is different in the US compared to Europe

In north america there is a lot of "choosed immigration" meaning that the US and Canada so far have restricted their official immigration to priorize the national needs, while it's not the traditionnal custom in most of europe. For example if you marry a french citizen you can get the citizenship after a couple of years while it's not possible to get the canadian citizenship this way (I didn't verify the US).

I do not say that this is bad, but the way north america selects their immigration also prevented it from becoming a major political issue contrary to europe which has been strongly impacted by the migrant crisis since 2015.

Even when the far-right is not in power, there has been a huge push for governments in europe to toughen laws on immigration since about 10 years https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-immigration-bill-france-marine-le-pen/

And so right now there are polls saying that for example in France 70% of voters think that there is a too high immigration even if french numbers are about the same than US ones per capita. In Denmark the socialist government has only reduced the far-right results by restricting immigration. Overall there is a huge push in europe for toughening laws on immigration.

[vcczar]

24 minutes ago, Pringles said:

I don't disagree with you but I do think there is something to be said about the religious divides in play here. Concerning Muslim families immigrating to Europe and elsewhere. I'm generally very pro-immigration. But people coming to our country, attending our universities, and then when the October 7th massacre occurs plenty of our own citizens partake in this as well... the violent rioting, blocking of major roads, open display of anti-semitism. Political parties will need to start taking this seriously before it is too late. It is a two-way street as well. The rise of anti-semitism on the far left and far right is frankly horrifying. It deserves to be called out no matter who is displaying such acts of hatred. 

I have always felt assimilation is a key and necessary component of immigration. You're free to disagree with me but I would like you to note I say that as the son of an immigrant. I want people to come here and prosper, believe what they want to believe, but share our values of respect, liberty, democracy, and respect for our institutions. In turn, we respect their participation in our democracy and respect them as new Americans. What is ideal to anyone is generally not likely to become true. However, one clear thing becomes more apparent to me every day: the philosophy of mass multiculturalism has failed. 

I'm not going to pretend to know what is best or worse for Europe in regards to immigration. My main response was prompted by the assumption that migrants "can't Westernize" now or eventually. Any group can eventually Westernize, whether the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation. 

[ConservativeElector2]

9 hours ago, vcczar said:

You sound like a lot of 19th century Americans who thought the same of Irish people, Italian people, Jewish people, black people, Slavic people, Hispanic people, Native American people, etc. The first two, possibly three generations, might not assimilate, but later generations do. Irish and Italians were notably connected to underground crime, leading to Americans to have the same backward assumptions that you are showing right here.

Sure it sucks for nativists the time being, but it will be normalized soon. Imagine if every Irish-American and Italian-American today wasn't considered a real American. Italians and Slavs weren't even considered "white" for decades. Benjamin Franklin thought poorly of Germans until Washington mention that their sons and grandsons will be Americans. 

 

Well, I hope you're right, but it doesn't look like it for now. Like Prongle said. We should expect that immigrants share our values of respect, liberty, democracy, and respect for our institutions. Especially with Afro-Arabian immigrants that's often not the case. Just look at what's happening since October 7th.

I think shootings between rival gangs in broad daylight or stabbing attacks are very good justifications for not wanting such people in any country at all. Many people call that the import of crime, that just didn't exist before certain groups migrated.

You say these arguments are backward assumptions, but that's the very same problem we see with most left-wing parties. When people point out obvious problems, these politicians don't take that serious and often don't even acknowledge that problems exist. So it's no wonder people turn to the right in the end.

[ConservativeElector2]

10 hours ago, vcczar said:

I tend to like melting pots like NYC, Philadelphia, etc.

And btw yes I also like that in theory. Various cultures, languages and foreign food are great. However, like I said I feel the overall situation regarding immigration is getting worse.

[Hestia]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:30 PM, DakotaHale said:

Conor McGregor is rumored to be considering running against the "soft" Irish PM or President or something.

 

[Pringles]

4 hours ago, Hestia said:

 

Ever since he lost to Khabib he’s just been all talk. 

[Cenzonico]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:53 PM, Hestia said:

 

At least the idea behind it is funny

Edited December 4, 2023 by Cenzonico