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Favorable or Unfavorable #498: Henry Kissinger


vcczar

Favorable or Unfavorable #498: Henry Kissinger  

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  1. 1. Did you read my first comment?

  2. 2. Favorable or Unfavorable #498: Henry Kissinger



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Henry Kissinger is possibly both the most visible foriegn policy figure in US history and possibly its most controversial. It's interesting that Kissinger went from being a Rockefeller Republican to a Trump supporter in his lifetime. I don't know at what level he truly supported Trump, but he seems to have been solidly opposed to Democrats leading foreign policy his entire career. This places him differently from his Democratic counterpart Brzezinski who would occasionally prefer a Democrat (Bush I over Dukakis, for instance). 

When Kissinger died recently news outlets seemed to be evenly split between praising him as an American hero and calling him a war criminal. There seemed to be no middle ground. 

His actions:

Kissinger, Henry 1960 Backs Rockefeller for president; serves as campaign foreign policy advisor
Kissinger, Henry 1964 Backs Rockefeller for president; serves as campaign foreign policy advisor
Kissinger, Henry 1968 Backs Rockefeller for president; serves as campaign foreign policy advisor
Kissinger, Henry 1969 Appt Nat Sec Advisor
Kissinger, Henry 1969 Negotiates SALT I; part of his detente policy w/ USSR, relaxing tensions to improve relations
Kissinger, Henry 1970 Role in bombing of Cambodia, resulting in expanding the Vietnam War
Kissinger, Henry 1971 In China to set up historic Nixon China trip for 1972; makes promises w/ China regarding Taiwan
Kissinger, Henry 1971 Role in supporting Pakistani dicator, despite Bengali genocide
Kissinger, Henry 1973 Role in Chilean coup de etat
Kissinger, Henry 1973 Confirmed Sec of State, replacing Rodgers
Kissinger, Henry 1973 Negotiates Paris Peace Accords, resulting in the end of the Vietnam War with Communist victory
Kissinger, Henry 1973 Wins Nobel Peace Prize
Kissinger, Henry 1974 Kept on as Sec of State by Ford
Kissinger, Henry 1975 Supports ignoring Cambodian genocide by Khymer Rouge
Kissinger, Henry 1980 Ford suggests as Sec of State to Reagan
Kissinger, Henry 1981 writes that Reagan is shockingly ignorant of foreign policy, but that he has the right gut instinct
Kissinger, Henry 2001 becomes subject of book by major author labeling him a war criminal in 7 nations (Trial of Henry Kissinger by Hitchens)
Kissinger, Henry 2003 becomes a Bush advisor for the Iraq War, although he becomes critical for the handling of the war
Kissinger, Henry 2016 Backs Trump, who he advises to accept Russia's claims on the Crimea to improve US ties to Russia
Kissinger, Henry 2022 Reverses on supporting Russia's claims on Crimea following Russian invasion of Ukraine; backs NATO over Russia
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I don't like the man, he contributed a lot of horrible things, but I think many on the left tend to undercomplicate his legacy because it feels better to push people into simple bins of "evil."

 

He did a lot of good diplomatically that shouldn't be simply swept under the rug.

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18 minutes ago, Rezi said:

He did a lot of good diplomatically that shouldn't be simply swept under the rug.

That sort of a trifle when you consider unnecessary deaths and toppling Democratically elected leader and such. I'm sure we could use "did a lot of good" to almost every politician that has been polled in this series. It's more to do with the frequently and extent of the bad. One can be in the "bin of evil" and still have done a lot of good, if the bad massively exceeds the good in extent and/or frequency.

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What does backing Trump mean in 2016? Kissinger notably did not endorse Trump (though he did not endorse Clinton either), and I believe it's been reported that the only former Secretary of State from either party to endorse Trump in 2016 was James Baker. 

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2 hours ago, Rezi said:

I don't like the man, he contributed a lot of horrible things, but I think many on the left tend to undercomplicate his legacy because it feels better to push people into simple bins of "evil."

 

He did a lot of good diplomatically that shouldn't be simply swept under the rug.

It's also so strange to me when partisans deride Kissinger's foreign policy as mindless war-mongering for the goal of death and destruction when like, every single President of both parties sought his input in their own approaches. Even Biden, who is the only one not to invite Kissinger to the White House, has a foreign policy approach carried out by Blinken and Burns, both of whom sought Kissinger's counsel in their current offices. 

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4 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

It's also so strange to me when partisans deride Kissinger's foreign policy as mindless war-mongering for the goal of death and destruction when like, every single President of both parties sought his input in their own approaches. Even Biden, who is the only one not to invite Kissinger to the White House, has a foreign policy approach carried out by Blinken and Burns, both of whom sought Kissinger's counsel in their current offices. 

The man can be experienced, and I wont begrudge him that, nor will I begrudge his ear towards current foreign policy proteges. But I heavily disagree with his assessments and how he approached the events of the 1960s-1990s and their eventual outcomes.

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2 hours ago, Rezi said:

I don't like the man, he contributed a lot of horrible things, but I think many on the left tend to undercomplicate his legacy because it feels better to push people into simple bins of "evil."

 

He did a lot of good diplomatically that shouldn't be simply swept under the rug.

TBH I'm kinda surprised I'm not the first to say this here.  Yeah, he's bad, but he's not the sum of all evil that gets memed around.  He was clearly very smart and had some good ideas.  He also just had some very terrible consequences (understatement) of his actions that he should have known better about so I can't rate him highly.

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2 hours ago, vcczar said:

That sort of a trifle when you consider unnecessary deaths and toppling Democratically elected leader and such. I'm sure we could use "did a lot of good" to almost every politician that has been polled in this series. It's more to do with the frequently and extent of the bad. One can be in the "bin of evil" and still have done a lot of good, if the bad massively exceeds the good in extent and/or frequency.

I think the point is V that hating Kissinger is pretty much a meme at this point rather than actual legitimate discourse.  Someone can be bad, but it's reached the point where saying so is no longer an interesting observation.

Edited by OrangeP47
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6 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

I think the point is V that hating Kissinger is pretty much a meme at this point rather than actual legitimate discourse.  Someone can be bad, but it's reached the point where saying so is no longer an interesting observation.

I agree and appreciate you saying this. And there’s a lot of politicians, whether the criticism is coming from the left or right, where this is really true. 

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8 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

I think the point is V that hating Kissinger is pretty much a meme at this point rather than actual legitimate discourse.  Someone can be bad, but it's reached the point where saying so is no longer an interesting observation.

I remember when he died you had a bunch of far leftists/MAGA/Far Right types saying he’s burning in Hell because he’s Jewish and that they only wish Soros had been taken before him, nonsense like that, it’s really ridiculous what goes on on that platform these days.

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Just now, Pringles said:

I remember when he died you had a bunch of far leftists/MAGA/Far Right types saying he’s burning in Hell because he’s Jewish and that they only wish Soros had been taken before him, nonsense like that, it’s really ridiculous what goes on on that platform these days.

See, maybe it's because I'm slightly older than the average internet loudmouth (though certainly I'm a loudmouth), but I never get personally mad in politics, though you all know I have very STRONG opinions.  It's not personal for them when they keep me down (as the member of several disadvantaged groups), so my dislike of them isn't personal either, it's just business.

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3 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

See, maybe it's because I'm slightly older than the average internet loudmouth (though certainly I'm a loudmouth), but I never get personally mad in politics, though you all know I have very STRONG opinions.  It's not personal for them when they keep me down (as the member of several disadvantaged groups), so my dislike of them isn't personal either, it's just business.

I do my best not to as well, I have only ever gotten truly upset when the personal character is questioned or constant moral indignation against a person ensues, along with specific types of people who become so loudmouthed they end up causing a mass exodus or getting a permanent ban. But that's old forum lore... 😛not to dredge up bad memories for some of us. 

@vcczar I wonder if Anthony even interacts with old Political Pundit still, who knows lol, maybe Anthony was political pundit...

 

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Just now, Pringles said:

I do my best not to as well, I have only ever gotten truly upset when the personal character is questioned or constant moral indignation against a person ensues, along with specific types of people who become so loudmouthed they end up causing a mass exodus or getting a permanent ban. But that's old forum lore... 😛not to dredge up bad memories for some of us. 

@vcczar I wonder if Anthony even interacts with old Political Pundit still, who knows lol, maybe Anthony was political pundit...

 

I actually had an account on Anthony's old forum but didn't use it for anything other than downloading a mod or two circa 2008.

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3 minutes ago, Pringles said:

@vcczar I wonder if Anthony even interacts with old Political Pundit still, who knows lol, maybe Anthony was political pundit...

If there are seperate entities then I doubt they interact because there isn't the forum anymore. 

There is a guy that comments frequently on Anthony's posts on Twitter, but he's a much more polished writer than PP ever was, and not as combative. I sometimes wonder if Anthony was PP or this guy on Twitter, but I don't see him taking the time to have alter egos. I really think he works, and when he isn't working, he just totally detaches from a project. He splits work from personal time. This is something I'm terrible at. I'm pretty much thinking of projects or working on them when I'm on "personal time." This is why I'm certain the game would have been out within a year of me coming up with the idea had I Anthony's ability and we'd probably have a new game every year. 

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1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

I actually had an account on Anthony's old forum but didn't use it for anything other than downloading a mod or two circa 2008.

I didn't get on the forum until late 2011 or early 2012. It was during the 2012 election sometime before Gingrich dropped out. From that time on, I was probably spending as much time on that forum as I spend in this one. 

The one thing I miss about that forum is that there was more political discussions, posts, polls, etc. that weren't just originated by me. I feel like I'm basically the prime mover of all activity on this thread (AMPU and other playtests, polls, posts, etc), and I don't really want to be. I just want to be one person doing this regularly, sort of how that forum was. 

The one massive upgrade on this forum is that we don't have people like Political Pundit, Koneke, Patine, etc. They, and a few others, turned the place into a hostile environment. 

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2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I didn't get on the forum until late 2011 or early 2012. It was during the 2012 election sometime before Gingrich dropped out. From that time on, I was probably spending as much time on that forum as I spend in this one. 

The one thing I miss about that forum is that there was more political discussions, posts, polls, etc. that weren't just originated by me. I feel like I'm basically the prime mover of all activity on this thread (AMPU and other playtests, polls, posts, etc), and I don't really want to be. I just want to be one person doing this regularly, sort of how that forum was. 

The one massive upgrade on this forum is that we don't have people like Political Pundit, Koneke, Patine, etc. They, and a few others, turned the place into a hostile environment. 

I don't know what the "climate" is like over there these days, if they're still good for discussion or if they're off the deep end, as in grad school I kinda got too busy for my political forums (as it was my life), but I used to be big on uselectionatlas and alternatehistory.com both of which were pretty top tier at least in the 2010s.

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5 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

Be warned though it uses the "traditional" colors of red = democrat, blue = republican

Oh boy I know this place haha. 

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1 minute ago, Pringles said:

Oh boy I know this place haha. 

I mean yes it's because dems = red = socialism haha, but also because it was founded pre 2000 and the colorscheme we all use now was codifed during the Bush v Gore debacle lol.

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5 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

I mean yes it's because dems = red = socialism haha, but also because it was founded pre 2000 and the colorscheme we all use now was codifed during the Bush v Gore debacle lol.

I really like it for the swing maps in historical elections. Trend maps as well. 

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1 minute ago, Pringles said:

I really like it for the swing maps in historical elections. Trend maps as well. 

I can't remember exactly how to access them too, but certain elections tell you exactly how many popular votes in what states are needed to swing the election too, which may be a lot less votes overall than flipping the actual closest state margin wise state due to state sizes, so that's always super interesting.

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1 minute ago, OrangeP47 said:

I can't remember exactly how to access them too, but certain elections tell you exactly how many popular votes in what states are needed to swing the election too, which may be a lot less votes overall than flipping the actual closest state margin wise state due to state sizes, so that's always super interesting.

Yeah, I just checked, check out 2004, it calculates that a swing of 18,776 votes in Iowa, New Mexico, and Nevada results in a 269-269 and the election decided by the house, while there's also a similar 269-269 achievable by swinging 70,023 votes.

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4 minutes ago, OrangeP47 said:

Since I know @vcczar will want this, here is the link:  https://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/

Simply load a historical presidential year, and on the yellow boxes on the left if there's a "what if" there's pre-calculated scenarios for alternate winners/ties with the minimum needed change in popular votes across the states.

I know this website. It is a helpful reference but I find it confusing because the creator won't adapt to the standard color scheme. I know it's a minor thing, but it really gets in the way mentally to keep reminding myself subconsciously that he's reversing the colors. 

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