Foreign Policy Questions - Current Events

[Pringles]

A poll from me with the recent shit going on with Russia and Ukraine.

[Rezi]

Full-Scale invasions by other global powers is my one pro-war stance. Fuck around and find out the might of the American Army, assholes.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Rezi

[Hestia]

Ukraine has made some impressive improvements to their military and readiness since 2014. Their population is some 40 million. (Keep in mind Russia's is roughly triple that - a lot, but not as huge an advantage as some would think). It's not going to be as easy as Russians think. I *think* Putin is smart enough to know that. However, domestic pressure could force him to act anyway. There's going to be clamoring on NATO's eastern flank for a response, as well, at the very least sending high powered weaponry to the Ukrainian Army.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Hestia

[Rezi]

Oh, and if Russia were to attack Ukraine, the response must be full and responsive suffocation. Take them out, occupy the country Post WW2 Germany style. Split Russia up into different countries permanently for all I care, but an imperialist Russia must be fully contained once and for all.

[Pringles]

Just now, Rezi said:

Oh, and if Russia were to attack Ukraine, the response must be full and responsive suffocation. Take them out, occupy the country Post WW2 Germany style. Split Russia up into different countries permanently for all I care, but an imperialist Russia must be fully contained once and for all.

Kaiserreich Russia. 😎😎😎😎😎

[Pringles]

1 minute ago, Patine said:

Although the answers are not clearly delineated in this poll (a problem I often come across :S )

[Hestia]

1 minute ago, Patine said:

Although the answers are not clearly delineated in this poll (a problem I often come across :S ), this issue goes back to the early '60's when a man of mixed Russian-Ukrainian heritage named Nikita Krushchev transferred a portion of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic collequially known as, "Novossorusyia," to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic when both were legally and constitutional administrative subdivisions of a single nation called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The reason for this transfer was seemingly unknown. Both Russia AND Ukraine have been belligerently and militantly inflexible on the issue FROM THE START - Russia demands unconditional and unqualified surrender of Russian-majority Oblast and the Crimean Autonomous Republic to either annexation or, "independence," (Russian puppet state status), and Ukraine has not budged from their borders (as drawn for inexplicable reasons by Krushchev) as being unconditionally non-negotiable and indivisible, regardless of the will of the people of Russian-majority Oblasts and the Crimean Autonomous Republic. Far-right-wing political - even Neo-Nazi ones - on both sides are exacerbating the issue. This issue has been from the start pursued in such a bad faith and unproductive manner that it would seem like a crime to actually take a side - especially if it potentially meant risking nuclear defending a country whose posture here has been, all-in-all, just as rotten, and to defend the validity of a map drawn by Krushchev, of all people. Other, non-military solutions are needed that do not reward the bad handling of this issue by either side.

One is a country being invaded and the other is not. One forced the situation and the other did not. It doesn't really get plainer than that. 

[Pringles]

Just now, Patine said:

 

 

 

You people are just insane - and completely out of touch!

Tell that to all of the Ukrainians you'd allow to get steamrolled. What's the newest revelation, you think we shouldn't have intervened in WW1 and WW2? 

[Hestia]

WHAT TO MAKE of the military analysts who calmly list the reasons why the most serious war in Europe since 1945 might begin in January? The flat, muddy terrain of south-eastern Ukraine will be frozen solid by then, allowing Russian tanks to roll in. It is in the middle of the deployment cycle for the conscripts who make up much of Russia’s ground forces. And Russia may find itself with a pretext for invasion, since the new year has in the past brought front-line flare-ups in Ukraine’s war against Russian-backed separatists. Besides, the 100,000 Russian troops massed near the border are more than mere theatre; Russia is setting up field hospitals and calling up its reserves.

Dima is unimpressed. A colonel in the Ukrainian army, he has watched the rapid transformation of his country’s armed forces from a bad joke to something approaching a modern army. And he thinks Russia has been watching, too. “They are afraid of us, because since 2014 we have shown what we can do,” 

Quotes from the Economist on how dire the situation is. 

[Hestia]

Just now, Patine said:

This part is incorrect. I just told you that Ukraine posture and inflexibility on the issue has been just as contributory to forcing the issue as Russia. But you seem to be under the illusion that Ukraine was in the right, and Russia in the wrong, on the issue from the start. Things are not that simple in the world.

Russia should not have invaded the country. That is an inflexible red line. THAT puts them in the wrong. Would any other reasonable country invade another for that reason? You're victim-blaming at that point. 

[Pringles]

Just now, Patine said:

I'm not defending Putin's actions - but things could have been better resolved before he even came to office.

Once again, you are not taking the reality of the situation and instead focusing on the hypotheticals of what could've potentially led to a better outcome rather than the one we're handed now. I'm asking people to take in the reality of the situation NOW. 

In fact, also the reality of the situation on what has already happened concerning 2014 as well. 

[Pringles]

Just now, Patine said:

Let's talk about reality. Do you REALLY fathom what a war with Russia means? Kaiserreich fantasies, aside?

The world is not going to get destroyed over what's going to end up a proxy war in Ukraine. 

It is the same inaction from blabbering hypothetical pedants such as yourself that cause millions of people to die over reckless dictators. Because you self proclaimed moral crusaders do NOTHING about it. And don't have the guts to stand for what is right. 

[Hestia]

5 minutes ago, Patine said:

Ukraine's policy from the early '90's that it's border (again, drawn by Krushchev) are non-negotiable and indivisible, regardless what any population groups within EVER desire contributed to getting to this point. I'm not defending Putin's actions - but things could have been better resolved before he even came to office.

Ukrainians were actually the greater part of Novorossiya when it was settled - 69% in 1851. You're naïve if you believe that this is just over a political will of the people there. You say you're not defending Putin's actions, but that's what has happened. You both-sides it by saying Ukraine has the same fault as Russia, when one invaded the other. If Russia had asked for dialogue earlier (which they did not) maybe it would be different. All of a sudden it came to a forefront again in 2014...I wonder why...

Edited December 1, 2021 by Hestia

[Kitten]

Can't wait till we nuke Moscow 🙂

 

[Pringles]

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

You are sick and twisted! That is an inhuman, sociopathic statement, even in jest. It is in regards for any population centre. That's disgusting. And I REALLY hope everyone else here finds that equally disgusting!

speak for yourself

[Hestia]

Just now, Patine said:

1851 is a long-time ago, and not much a justification to say ethnic Russians forfeit self-determination because of demographics before anyone today was born.

Pretty selective choice of what was said. I'm sure the Crimean Tatars are ecstatic at Russia taking them over again after they got genocided by them. Sham referendums don't prove a thing. There's no proof there was any clamoring in eastern Ukraine to leave the country - there is no mention of it on the Wikipedia pages being popular until Putin (hmm wonder why that is a precipitating event) mentioned it in 2014 and sent his little green men over the border. 

[Hestia]

Just now, Patine said:

Besides, I've made clear I believe BOTH SIDES are in the wrong and handled this issue abysmally. But you're speaking as if Ukraine has a complete higher ground and is totally in the right.

They do have a higher ground. They may not totally be in the right, but to say they don't have a higher ground is pathetically wrong. 

[Kitten]

Can't wait till Ukraine fully joins NATO and the EU

[Kitten]

A UN Army sounds pretty based ngl 🙂

 

[Pringles]

Just now, Patine said:

I speak for anyone with humanity and a soul.

Which is only you in your head. 

[Hestia]

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

So, you believe their, "indivisible and non-negotiable borders, and fuck ethnic Russians," is a valid policy. I notice most of the world didn't come to the aid of Milosovic when he pushed a similar policy in Yugoslavia in the early '90's, and I don't recall you ever praising him for other ethnicities going their own way with the military aid of foreign countries, there.

You seem to think that accepting that the ethnic Russians want to be in Russia preemptively is an acceptable response. There is nothing to show that Crimea or Novorossiya wanted to leave Ukraine until 2014 when Putin pressed the issue. Seems like you just think Ukraine should bend over and take it. Good thing they aren't cowardly. 

[Dobs]

2 minutes ago, Patine said:

Fuck off, punk! I'm sick of your stupid, twisted, warped, sick shit, and pretending it's acceptable, and even somehow ethical and moral, and then pretending that nothing I say has validity and I'm alone in the world in my opinions. You know jack shit about the world! A deconstructionist youth at his most pitiful!

Yeah we're going to need to talk a stroll away from this conversation for a moment, Patine.

[Rezi]

7 minutes ago, Kitten said:

A UN Army sounds pretty based ngl 🙂

 

Any sort of world army or continental army is an overwhelming amount of centralization and unbased 

[Kitten]

Just now, Rezi said:

Any sort of world army or continental army is an overwhelming amount of centralization and unbased 

Kay

[Pringles]

Just now, Rezi said:

Any sort of world army or continental army is an overwhelming amount of centralization and unbased 

Bro, I'm the South Carolinian, not you!!!

Unless you're trying to be Barb as part of the #Leave gang that is. 😛 

Quit trying to steal our spotlight of leaving unions and organizations... 😛