Biden Marks One Year Since the January 6th in Speech

[vcczar]

I'm curious if any of you have listened to Biden's speech? I'm also curious what your thoughts are on the insurrection of Jan 6 2021. 

[vcczar]

4 minutes ago, Patine said:

"insurrectionists," - a term that implies being armed (outside of maybe a minority) and organized moreso like a rebel militia.

Many of them were armed

[jvikings1]

The riots during the summer of 2020 and the riot at the capital are all wrong. Anyone who treats them differently is nothing more than a partisan loyalist.

[DakotaHale]

27 minutes ago, Patine said:

@vcczar @jvikings1 @Pringles @Rezi This just, coincidentally, happens to be going on right now, as we speak:

2022 Kazakh protests - Wikipedia

Protest, mob, or insurgency? Legal or illegal? Justifiable or treasonous? Moral issues of rationale or leadership aside, answers anyone?

 

Skimmed it for five minutes. With  my minimal knowledge of the situation I reach the following verdicts:

Based, illegal, protest & mob, justifiable.

[DakotaHale]

based

[Rezi]

7 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

based

Based. I wish there was an answer to say "There's nothing wrong with protesting in the capitol building but it was for stupid anti-democracy reasons (rather than something reasonable like protesting a policy) and they took it too far with politicians reasonably fearing for their safety."

[DakotaHale]

Thought experiment: Imagine if there was an unlikely scenario in which there was 100% undeniable proof that a hypothetical President-Elect rigged the election against a sitting President, and congress was controlled by members of the President-Elects party and were going to certify their victory. Would you support storming the Capitol to overturn the results in this case?

Agree for Yes

Disagree for No

To be clear I don’t believe the conspiracy that the Democrats/Whoever rigged the election for an irrevocable Biden win (though I do think some shenanigans went on), this is just a fun thought experiment.

[Rezi]

3 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

Thought experiment: Imagine if there was an unlikely scenario in which there was 100% undeniable proof that a hypothetical President-Elect rigged the election against a sitting President, and congress was controlled by members of the President-Elects party and were going to certify their victory. Would you support storming the Capitol to overturn the results in this case?

Agree for Yes

Disagree for No.

This is a democracy-ending scenario if an election was undeniably rigged. Sometimes the people need to step up to save freedom and democracy.

[Pringles]

50 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

Thought experiment: Imagine if there was an unlikely scenario in which there was 100% undeniable proof that a hypothetical President-Elect rigged the election against a sitting President, and congress was controlled by members of the President-Elects party and were going to certify their victory. Would you support storming the Capitol to overturn the results in this case?

Agree for Yes

Disagree for No

To be clear I don’t believe the conspiracy that the Democrats/Whoever rigged the election for an irrevocable Biden win (though I do think some shenanigans went on), this is just a fun thought experiment.

Yes, in the event of a clear, illegitimate ruler with an illegitimate backing, I would perform my duty as a citizen of the United States, and a supporter of Democracy. 

I would become V for Vendetta. 😛 

[DakotaHale]

Just now, Patine said:

I know, it saddening @DakotaHale. It's a very bleak and dismal state of affairs. But, do you know who is empowered, the U.S. Constitution as the sole source of empowerment and legitimacy of the Republic, in fact, to change this, if properly motivated. It is NOT the leadership of the Democratic Party of the United States or the Republican Party of the United States. It is NOT the big corporations, media giants, or moneyed special interest and lobby groups. And it is NOT the FEC and other agencies. It is, in fact (as clearly stated), "(You) the People of the United States of America and the Component States of the Union." It's funny how all the institutions I listed above seem to act with an authoritarian impunity and as though they were free and legitimately enabled to ignore the latter aspect as they see fit. Food for thought, @DakotaHale. Of course, I'm NOT suggesting ANY specific course of action, other than pointing out this often overlooked fact.

Comrade Patine says it’s time to take up arms against the US government!!

[pilight]

3 hours ago, jvikings1 said:

The riots during the summer of 2020 and the riot at the capital are all wrong. Anyone who treats them differently is nothing more than a partisan loyalist.

The biggest difference being that BLM was protesting something that actually happened

[jvikings1]

4 hours ago, Patine said:

@vcczar @jvikings1 @Pringles @Rezi This just, coincidentally, happens to be going on right now, as we speak:

2022 Kazakh protests - Wikipedia

Protest, mob, or insurgency? Legal or illegal? Justifiable or treasonous? Moral issues of rationale or leadership aside, answers anyone?

 

Protest, mob, riot, some justifiable (actions directed towards the government, though looting of innocent 3rd parties is not)

[jvikings1]

41 minutes ago, pilight said:

The biggest difference being that BLM was protesting something that actually happened

Another big difference is the BLM riots resulted in innocent 3rd parties having their businesses burned and looted. Setting aside justifiability, the capital rioters took it directly to the people they thought were responsible (due to them being misled that Congress has any sort of ability to overturn the vote of the electoral college).

[Wiw]

Come now, it's quite obvious they wanted to install Trump as dictator, just nobody wants to admit it.

[DakotaHale]

30 minutes ago, Wiw said:

Come now, it's quite obvious they wanted to install Trump as dictator, just nobody wants to admit it.

My favorite part of the Nazi uprisings were when Hitler told his people to peacefully protest and go home after he scared the politicianerinos

[Hestia]

2 hours ago, DakotaHale said:

My favorite part of the Nazi uprisings were when Hitler told his people to peacefully protest and go home after he scared the politicianerinos

My least favorite part about Jan. 6 was the fact that many of our legislators were close to death and people aren't admitting it. Romney was nearly within sight at one point. I'm sure they would've just 'scared' him though. 

[Hestia]

44 minutes ago, Patine said:

I'm not in denial of that at all. I specifically said, "VIOLENT mob attempting to force political change through fear and DESTRUCTION." I just dispute the term, "insurrection." This is moreso akin to the Kapp or Beer Hall Putsch, by definition. And both of those were led by virulent, far-right-wing reactionaries and did cause deaths and injuries. It's clarity I seek - I'm not denying the element you claim - if, indeed, that indictment of denial or downplaying was aimed at me.

I wasn't replying to you so I wasn't accusing you of denying it.

[DakotaHale]

6 hours ago, Hestia said:

My least favorite part about Jan. 6 was the fact that many of our legislators were close to death and people aren't admitting it. Romney was nearly within sight at one point. I'm sure they would've just 'scared' him though. 

Eh, I don't think many were close to death. Not a single cop was killed by the protestors, even during conflict, and the vast majority of the protestors were unarmed and simply walked in the Capitol building (even humorously following the velvet ropes in Statuary Hall). Was it a scary situation for everyone involved? Sure, but I don't think a mass murder of US politicians was a likely scenario. Not 100% defending them though, I think trespassing charges for everyone proven to be at the Capitol are more than fair, and assault/battery/attempted murder charges for those who instigated attacks on officers and/or were armed are necessary.

[jvikings1]

1 hour ago, DakotaHale said:

Eh, I don't think many were close to death. Not a single cop was killed by the protestors, even during conflict, and the vast majority of the protestors were unarmed and simply walked in the Capitol building (even humorously following the velvet ropes in Statuary Hall). Was it a scary situation for everyone involved? Sure, but I don't think a mass murder of US politicians was a likely scenario. Not 100% defending them though, I think trespassing charges for everyone proven to be at the Capitol are more than fair, and assault/battery/attempted murder charges for those who instigated attacks on officers and/or were armed are necessary.

And holding some of these people for more than a year (especially the ones who should face only trespass charges; didn’t break anything or assault anyone) is unreasonable 

Edited January 8, 2022 by jvikings1

[vcczar]

52 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

And holding some of these people for more than a year (especially the ones who should face only trespass charges; didn’t break anything or assault anyone) is unreasonable 

I’d expect that trespassing on federal property and defying law enforcement in the process might be more serious than standard trespassing. Especially when it’s a mob trespass too. 

[jvikings1]

9 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I’d expect that trespassing on federal property and defying law enforcement in the process might be more serious than standard trespassing. Especially when it’s a mob trespass too. 

There are specific offenses for the capital (see 40 USC 5104(e)(2) – Violent Entry and Disorderly Conduct), but those are still misdemeanors. The more serious offenders get into felony territory. However, just because something is a felony does not mean a person is held for long periods of time without bail. Many murderers are free as they await trial.