Poll

[Timur]

With UK local elections coming up, I will do some polls I did in 270soft forums.

[Timur]

23 minutes ago, Patine said:

I'm unfamiliar with the local politics of Hartepool, I'm afraid. Is there any significant local issues or deviations of candidates from standard party expectations at the national level on you can inform me about, in capsulated form?

No, I just noticed that it was a by-election that was going to take place the same day as the UK local elections.

[vcczar]

@Timur I honestly don't know enough about their parties to vote. I favor Social Democracy in the style of Scandinavian governments. 

[Hestia]

To all of you who voted Abolish the Welsh Assembly, I'm sure you didn't watch the debate that made their leader look like a bumbling fool of himself, just like the party they represent.

[Dobs]

38 minutes ago, Patine said:

I don't know why a party dedicated to abolishing the Welsh National Assembly and re-establishing unitary governance is so popular, either. And it seems odd that @Dobs, a huge champion of States rights in the U.S. would support such a part above all others in Wales, but I'm sure he must have his reasons.

And it seems you're post is attracting mirth, but I'm not sure if it's of the, "laughing with," or, "laughing at," type...

I'm an all or nothing type guy. The UK is a unitary system and unequal devolution as it currently stands endangers the union. I'd be much happier with regional assemblies with real power, if the UK adopted a Federal model that would be great. But I think Federalism for some, Unitary for others is a bad deal.

Otherwise, though, I marked the box because I'd consider voting for them. Chances are that I'd vote for the Welsh Conservatives but I had to check them because I'd give them an honest look (unlikely as it would be for me to pull the lever.)

[Dobs]

3 minutes ago, Patine said:

Perhaps instead of the "negative policy," (in the political policy-making sense, of retractive or repealing policies, not  "positive policies," which would be new or expansive polices - not the term in definition of tenor or outlook) and just give Mebyon Kernow, the Wessex Regionalist Party, the North East Party, the Yorkshire Party, the English Democrats (maybe in terms of their support base in the Home Counties), and the other parties who want one or more devolved assemblies in England their way, instead, of abolishing the Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish devolved governments would be a more equitable solution.

I agree! Again, I'm not saying I necessarily would vote for the WAP (Welsh Abolition Party is such a better name), but I'd consider it. That's all the question asks. Though, as I trust @Hestia to be quite truthful, perhaps the leader is a turkey and has been disqualified from that privilege. I cannot say as I haven't seen the debate in question.

[Timur]

14 hours ago, Hestia said:

To all of you who voted Abolish the Welsh Assembly, I'm sure you didn't watch the debate that made their leader look like a bumbling fool of himself, just like the party they represent.

I didn't see the debate yet. (I may see it soon)

[Timur]

I mean, one may ask why vote SNP when they have an awful leader - Nicola Sturgeon - who is alleged to have created fake sexual assault on minors allegations against Alex Salmond. I mean, the Green Party and the Alba Party are pro-Independence option.

[Hestia]

7 hours ago, Timur said:

I mean, one may ask why vote SNP when they have an awful leader - Nicola Sturgeon - who is alleged to have created fake sexual assault on minors allegations against Alex Salmond. I mean, the Green Party and the Alba Party are pro-Independence option.

Alleged and cleared, and there is no evidence she created allegations whatsoever. That's a lie pretty much. Alba is the joke, not the SNP. 

[Timur]

1 hour ago, Hestia said:

Alleged and cleared, and there is no evidence she created allegations whatsoever. That's a lie pretty much. Alba is the joke, not the SNP. 

"Where there is smoke there is fire."

Even if it is "cleared," I will still have doubts, though her being "cleared" also creates doubts about Salmond as well. I used to be very favorable to the SNP, because I thought Sturgeon was someone who had an ability to lead, but now, I'm not so sure. Not long ago, I would have been totally OK with their seceding, as well as other secession movements (including Wales, Catalonia, Alaska, Hawaii, Kurdistan, etc.), but that support is waning.

I would say that if I were to vote in Scotland, I would probably vote Tory, even though I'm no fan of their leader.

[Hestia]

36 minutes ago, Timur said:

"Where there is smoke there is fire."

Even if it is "cleared," I will still have doubts, though her being "cleared" also creates doubts about Salmond as well. I used to be very favorable to the SNP, because I thought Sturgeon was someone who had an ability to lead, but now, I'm not so sure. Not long ago, I would have been totally OK with their seceding, as well as other secession movements (including Wales, Catalonia, Alaska, Hawaii, Kurdistan, etc.), but that support is waning.

I would say that if I were to vote in Scotland, I would probably vote Tory, even though I'm no fan of their leader.

Firstly, she was cleared by an independent investigator, not a partisan commission, so it's clear that it wasn't really biased. Even the no confidence motion failed horribly as the SNP (ofc) and Greens voted no, but Labour and the Lib Dems also abstained. They are both unionist parties. They had a clear motive to vote yes, but they didn't. So the Scottish Parliament also thought she didn't breach ministerial code. Parties that almost assuredly want her gone.

And what was the alternative in this case? Not forward the allegations? In my mind, that would've been worse and wouldve reeked of scandal at protecting a former mentor. 

It's pretty clear shes an able leader, putting this aside. Her COVID handling was great. If she was a bad leader and they liked Salmond, Scotland would throw her out on Thursday. Polls suggest they'll do the opposite. 

[Timur]

32 minutes ago, Patine said:

Or are a Hollywood dry ice machine. :S

What leads to your support for secessionism as a whole waning. If it's just current leadership of major movements in your critical viewpoint - such justification should analogously lead me to be an all-around Anarchist (which I AM NOT).

I'm still supportive of Kurdistan 100%. Still strong for Catalonia. Not so for Scotland. Anyhow, the Leave campaign lost the referendum. Try again in the next generation. As for Wales, the support for Independence is 28%, while opposition is 57%.

[Timur]

I'll admit this map is still attractive, though.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Timur

[Timur]

Just now, Patine said:

A razor thin decision in Scotland. Yep, they're going to stop going on about it completely and go on with standard business, accepting such a close vote gracefully as a fait accompli for a generation - just like the Quebec Separatists... 🙄

I don't call 55.3%-44.7% razor thin.

"Once in a generation event" - Alex Salmond

"Once in a lifetime opportunity for Scotland" - Nicola Sturgeon.

So, wait till 2030s or 40s.

[Hestia]

2 minutes ago, Timur said:

I don't call 55.3%-44.7% razor thin.

"Once in a generation event" - Alex Salmond

"Once in a lifetime opportunity for Scotland" - Nicola Sturgeon.

So, wait till 2030s or 40s.

Things have pretty clearly changed since then. Brexit...I remember the No campaign saying they'd forfeit EU membership if they leave. Well, Scotland voted to remain, but that wasn't respected either.

[Timur]

12 minutes ago, Patine said:

It's not close by post-Reagan American Presidential popular vote totals, no. But, in a lot of the world electorally, it's a close vote. Perspective, proportion, and context!

In South Korea 52 to 48% is close, but I'm not sure about 55% to 45%.

11 minutes ago, Hestia said:

Things have pretty clearly changed since then. Brexit...I remember the No campaign saying they'd forfeit EU membership if they leave. Well, Scotland voted to remain, but that wasn't respected either.

Scotland is still part of the UK as a whole.

6 minutes ago, Patine said:

"Isn't democracy great,"

-The Colombian drug lord to the Delta Force commander (played by Chuck Norris) mockingly after being aquitted in court of all charges when Norris' character and his team apprehended him for trial from Colombia, "Delta Force 2."

Votes don't always mean what you think they do, @Timur and circumstances and context around them can't always be relied upon a gauge of the winds of popular support or will for long, necessarily.

(Down with votes! Monarchy shall take over!)

I don't understand your Colombia reference honestly. What is Delta Force 2?

Will you explain your position better?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Timur

[Hestia]

Just now, Timur said:

Scotland is still part of the UK as a whole.

But it still changes the dynamics of a "once in a generation vote" when the facts of the vote have radically changed since 2014.

[Timur]

Also, will you recognize Vladimir Putin as the legitimate President of Russia?

In 2000: 53.4%

In 2004: 71.9%

In 2012: 63.6%

In 2018: 76.69%

[Timur]

Just now, Hestia said:

But it still changes the dynamics of a "once in a generation vote" when the facts of the vote have radically changed since 2014.

Can you elaborate on your position, please?

[Hestia]

1 minute ago, Timur said:

Can you elaborate on your position, please?

I think its pretty clear. Scotland voted in 2014 55% to remain in the UK. In 2016, they voted 62% to remain in the EU. A new independent Scotland has a good chance to join the EU. Thus, facts have changed.

[Timur]

Just now, Patine said:

No, because he institutionally suppresses opposition and stacks the electoral deck. Then again, so does the American Duopoly, and you may have noticed me being a wee bit critical of them and their hegemony...

He does, but the polls still show a landslide victory for him. And having seen what the Russian people view of him, I can't say it's totally fradulent. I personally agree that he is a terrible person, but when you have him against the Communist Party, a madman who's policies include burning Paris and bombing Japan, a showwoman who isn't at all Presidential, etc., I can see why he wins.

[Timur]

4 minutes ago, Hestia said:

I think its pretty clear. Scotland voted in 2014 55% to remain in the UK. In 2016, they voted 62% to remain in the EU. A new independent Scotland has a good chance to join the EU. Thus, facts have changed.

Still looks like an excuse, not a sufficient reason to leave. But agree to disagree.

[Hestia]

Just now, Timur said:

Still looks like an excuse, not a sufficient reason to leave. But agree to disagree.

😆  I think many Scots would disagree with that impression. Since after all, it should be their choice.

[Timur]

Just now, Hestia said:

😆  I think many Scots would disagree with that impression. Since after all, it should be their choice.

Maybe it's also time to recognize the choice of the English and the Welsh to leave the EU.😏

[Hestia]

Just now, Timur said:

Maybe it's also time to recognize the choice of the English and the Welsh to leave the EU.😏

I'm not saying not to - but maybe they should respect their Scottish and Northern Irish neighbors as well 🙂But to say it doesn't change the factors of the independence debate is a farce.