Groupthinking the Political Value (looking for feedback)

[vcczar]

Just now, ebrk85 said:

Ha Lackey is pulling a -53, Incompetent -20 and the rest of the bad traits -5 or-10 it looks like.  I'm guessing Lackey is supposed to be -5 not -53!

Yep. -5

[ebrk85]

All you lackeys out there are about to get a big boost in PV 😂

[MrPotatoTed]

3 minutes ago, ebrk85 said:

Ha Lackey is pulling a -53, Incompetent -20 and the rest of the bad traits -5 or-10 it looks like.  I'm guessing Lackey is supposed to be -5 not -53!

That's actually not too bad then, if we fix Lackey to -5.  

If I had to spitball some values, based on feedback above and pending @vcczar's changes...maybe something like

+30 Master Kingmaker

+15 Kingmaker, Ironfist, Leadership (Command = 15x levels in command)

+10 Charisma, Likeable, Efficient, Manipulative, Hale, Magician, (Legis, Governing, admin = 10x levels in legis, admin & Governing)

+5 Debator, Orator, Puritan, Integrity, Provincial, Cosmopolitan, Egghead, Everyman, Celebrity, Military Leader, Propogandist, Teflon, Bookkeeper, Geostrategist, Domestic Warrior, Harmonious, Lawful, Jurisprudence, Crisis Manager, Crisis Gov, Crisis Admin, Decisive General, Union Loyalist(military, judicial = 5x levels in military, judicial)

Also, expertise in a topic would be worth 5 PV.  So someone with agriculture, transportation, and welfare would be worth 15 PV.

-5 Controversial, Lackey, Numberfudger, Naive Strategist, Delegator, Micromanager, Illicit, Overeager
-10 Disharmonious, Frail, Uncharismatic, Unlikable, Incoherent, Flip-flopper, Domestic Apathy, Carpetbagger
-15 Pliable, Incompetent, Two-Faced, Predictable
-20 Incompetent, Passive
-25 Obscure (the intent here is that non-obscure politicians will shoot up to the top)

Ideally there would be bonus/penalty for age too, but I'm not sure how that would be done.  And penalties for gender/racial/sexual preference/etc minorities during eras where those were uncouth, but not sure we could adjust the formula by era.

Oh!  Offices.

President +1000
Vice President +500
Speaker/Senate Maj Leader +400
Other Maj/Min Leaders +350
Maj/Min Whips +300
Senator, Upper Cabinet +250
Governor, Rest of Cabinet +100
Rep, Cabinet-Level +50
Military leader +20
Military/Ambassadors +10



 

[Willthescout7]

2 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That's actually not too bad then, if we fix Lackey to -5.  

If I had to spitball some values, based on feedback above and pending @vcczar's changes...maybe something like

+30 Master Kingmaker

+15 Kingmaker, Ironfist, Leadership (Command = 15x levels in command)

+10 Charisma, Likeable, Efficient, Manipulative, Hale, Magician, (Legis, Governing, admin = 10x levels in legis, admin & Governing)

+5 Debator, Orator, Puritan, Integrity, Provincial, Cosmopolitan, Egghead, Everyman, Celebrity, Military Leader, Propogandist, Teflon, Bookkeeper, Geostrategist, Domestic Warrior, Harmonious, Lawful, Jurisprudence, Crisis Manager, Crisis Gov, Crisis Admin, Decisive General, Union Loyalist(military, judicial = 5x levels in military, judicial)

Also, expertise in a topic would be worth 5 PV.  So someone with agriculture, transportation, and welfare would be worth 15 PV.

-5 Controversial, Lackey, Numberfudger, Naive Strategist, Delegator, Micromanager, Illicit, Overeager
-10 Disharmonious, Frail, Uncharismatic, Unlikable, Incoherent, Flip-flopper, Domestic Apathy, Carpetbagger
-15 Pliable, Incompetent, Two-Faced, Predictable
-20 Incompetent, Passive
-25 Obscure (the intent here is that non-obscure politicians will shoot up to the top)

Ideally there would be bonus/penalty for age too, but I'm not sure how that would be done.  And penalties for gender/racial/sexual preference/etc minorities during eras where those were uncouth, but not sure we could adjust the formula by era.

Oh!  Offices.

President +1000
Vice President +500
Speaker/Senate Maj Leader +400
Other Maj/Min Leaders +350
Maj/Min Whips +300
Senator, Upper Cabinet +250
Governor, Rest of Cabinet +100
Rep, Cabinet-Level +50
Military leader +20
Military/Ambassadors +10



 

Easily Overwhelmed should be in here

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Ideally there would be bonus/penalty for age too

A good formula for this would ages 45 and below, and age 75 and up being slightly penalized. 

[Willthescout7]

2 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That's actually not too bad then, if we fix Lackey to -5.  

If I had to spitball some values, based on feedback above and pending @vcczar's changes...maybe something like

+30 Master Kingmaker

+15 Kingmaker, Ironfist, Leadership (Command = 15x levels in command)

+10 Charisma, Likeable, Efficient, Manipulative, Hale, Magician, (Legis, Governing, admin = 10x levels in legis, admin & Governing)

+5 Debator, Orator, Puritan, Integrity, Provincial, Cosmopolitan, Egghead, Everyman, Celebrity, Military Leader, Propogandist, Teflon, Bookkeeper, Geostrategist, Domestic Warrior, Harmonious, Lawful, Jurisprudence, Crisis Manager, Crisis Gov, Crisis Admin, Decisive General, Union Loyalist(military, judicial = 5x levels in military, judicial)

Also, expertise in a topic would be worth 5 PV.  So someone with agriculture, transportation, and welfare would be worth 15 PV.

-5 Controversial, Lackey, Numberfudger, Naive Strategist, Delegator, Micromanager, Illicit, Overeager
-10 Disharmonious, Frail, Uncharismatic, Unlikable, Incoherent, Flip-flopper, Domestic Apathy, Carpetbagger
-15 Pliable, Incompetent, Two-Faced, Predictable
-20 Incompetent, Passive
-25 Obscure (the intent here is that non-obscure politicians will shoot up to the top)

Ideally there would be bonus/penalty for age too, but I'm not sure how that would be done.  And penalties for gender/racial/sexual preference/etc minorities during eras where those were uncouth, but not sure we could adjust the formula by era.

Oh!  Offices.

President +1000
Vice President +500
Speaker/Senate Maj Leader +400
Other Maj/Min Leaders +350
Maj/Min Whips +300
Senator, Upper Cabinet +250
Governor, Rest of Cabinet +100
Rep, Cabinet-Level +50
Military leader +20
Military/Ambassadors +10



 

I would have half the points for offices. Those are a bit too high, but with the new values for traits maybe not

[MrPotatoTed]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

A good formula for this would ages 45 and below, and age 75 and up being slightly penalized. 

I like it, I just don't know if that can be done in excel.  Probably! By someone smarter than me. ;c)

[vcczar]

Copy+Pasting this into the right thread:

@MrPotatoTed This is roughly the changes I've been thinking about. This is just a rough draft: 

• Cosmopolitan - 25% chance of +1 in the 10 largest states (EV) in presidential election, but a 25% chance of -1 in state elections such as Gov and US Rep. As US Senate races seem to be less provincial, for whatever reason, they won't get penalized for those taxes. 
• Provincial - 25% chance of +1 in races for Gov and US Rep; 25% chance +1 in home region when running for president; 25% chance of -1 in all other regions outside of home region and 25% chance of -1 in the top 10 EV states, unless it is a home state. 
• Lackey - If a lackey belongs to the party leader's faction, they cannot be converted or manipulated by any other faction leader. A lackey cannot earn "leadership" until the lackey has lost "lackey." A "lackey" cannot be a major candidate for president. 
• Magician - Gets a two die rolls during shenanigan phases during the Congress in Session, and takes the larger number as his die roll. 
• Bookkeeper/Numberfudger - Gets an extra +1/-1 admin while serving as Sec of Treasury, US Bank President, or Chairman of the Fed Reserve. 
• Geostrategists/Naive Strategists - Same as the above but for Sec of State or as Amb or as Nat Sec Adv. 
• Domestic Warrior/Domestic Apathy - Same as the above but for Sec of Labor, Health, HUD, Transportation, Education. 
• Lawful/Illicit - Same as the above but for Att Gen, HL Security.. 
• Crisis Manager/Gov/Admin - During an ongoing crisis.. The president with crisis manager gets a temporary +1 command if a meter is at 1 or 2 and there is a relavant on-going crisis, and they will get +1 to any ability in which the president is needed to resolve an event, action, or legislation. During a domestic or economic crisis, Crisis Gov will have a temporary +1 Gov for the duration of the crisis. Crisis Admin will have a temporary +1 in admin if the crisis is relavant to their office. 

[Murrman104]

I agree with all of these but especially Cosmopolitan, it felt like a very weak trait up to now and now it seems quite strong 

[ShortKing]

4 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That's actually not too bad then, if we fix Lackey to -5.  

If I had to spitball some values, based on feedback above and pending @vcczar's changes...maybe something like

+30 Master Kingmaker

+15 Kingmaker, Ironfist, Leadership (Command = 15x levels in command)

+10 Charisma, Likeable, Efficient, Manipulative, Hale, Magician, (Legis, Governing, admin = 10x levels in legis, admin & Governing)

+5 Debator, Orator, Puritan, Integrity, Provincial, Cosmopolitan, Egghead, Everyman, Celebrity, Military Leader, Propogandist, Teflon, Bookkeeper, Geostrategist, Domestic Warrior, Harmonious, Lawful, Jurisprudence, Crisis Manager, Crisis Gov, Crisis Admin, Decisive General, Union Loyalist(military, judicial = 5x levels in military, judicial)

Also, expertise in a topic would be worth 5 PV.  So someone with agriculture, transportation, and welfare would be worth 15 PV.

-5 Controversial, Lackey, Numberfudger, Naive Strategist, Delegator, Micromanager, Illicit, Overeager
-10 Disharmonious, Frail, Uncharismatic, Unlikable, Incoherent, Flip-flopper, Domestic Apathy, Carpetbagger
-15 Pliable, Incompetent, Two-Faced, Predictable
-20 Incompetent, Passive
-25 Obscure (the intent here is that non-obscure politicians will shoot up to the top)

Ideally there would be bonus/penalty for age too, but I'm not sure how that would be done.  And penalties for gender/racial/sexual preference/etc minorities during eras where those were uncouth, but not sure we could adjust the formula by era.

Oh!  Offices.

President +1000
Vice President +500
Speaker/Senate Maj Leader +400
Other Maj/Min Leaders +350
Maj/Min Whips +300
Senator, Upper Cabinet +250
Governor, Rest of Cabinet +100
Rep, Cabinet-Level +50
Military leader +20
Military/Ambassadors +10



 

I like this and might add that I noticed the recent rules change giving an election bonus for legis ability in congressional races and gov ability in governors races. While I like the idea, I don't necessarily think it's true to life that voters are great at identifying what candidate has the most appropriate skillset let alone voting on it. I think if we do rework how PV is calculated, it might be better to replace that electoral boost with one that rewards highest PV instead. That would indirectly capture disparities in abilities but also the breadth of their career, for example a pol running for Senate after having served as Governor will do better than they would have before even if serving as Gov did not improve their legislative ability, which is true to life imo. Thoughts?

[jnewt]

1 hour ago, ShortKing said:

I like this and might add that I noticed the recent rules change giving an election bonus for legis ability in congressional races and gov ability in governors races. While I like the idea, I don't necessarily think it's true to life that voters are great at identifying what candidate has the most appropriate skillset let alone voting on it. I think if we do rework how PV is calculated, it might be better to replace that electoral boost with one that rewards highest PV instead. That would indirectly capture disparities in abilities but also the breadth of their career, for example a pol running for Senate after having served as Governor will do better than they would have before even if serving as Gov did not improve their legislative ability, which is true to life imo. Thoughts?

My thoughts when suggesting that change was that ability ought to have some effect, but also recognize that voters often don’t vote for the more qualified candidate (see Herschel Walker and Dr. Oz almost getting elected). But when all else equal, I think it is often taken into consideration (Ed Markey vs. Joe Kennedy III). That’s why I think the 50% chance of +1 that was settled on was actually better than my suggestion of an automatic +1. I would also have to disagree with using PV instead. A lot of what makes up PV is already accounted for in elections, so it would seem that would make the possible points for integrity, celebrity, charisma, etc. redundant. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by jnewt

[ebrk85]

I agree with both statements above. The voters def don't always vote for the best candidate but I am ok with what was added since it is only a 50% chance. So it kinda factors in both kinds of voters.  I do hesitate using PV in elections though. Any final calculation we come up with on how we get PV values is still very subjective. I don't think that would be a good representation to use in elections. 

[MrPotatoTed]

Yeah, using PV would be double-counting the various good and bad traits.  I think the 50/50 measure is a good way to represent that sometimes the country nominates qualified people and sometimes we Leroy Jenkins our way into letting an orange micropenis call the shots for four years. ;c)

[vcczar]

@MrPotatoTed I'm going to "finalize" these changes tomorrow, unless there's significant debate over any of these changes. After that, I'll make a poll in regards to numerical values for updating the Politician Value. My goal is to create it in such a way that the average politician is a score of 50, so weak politicians are below that, and great politicians are higher than that. It's going to take a lot of math. I'll probably have to add up the PV of the 9k politicians (or whatever # we have), then average them, and then just add a number to the title to have the approximate average to where it = 50. 

The offices adding to PV is something I haven't come around to yet. But I'm open to being convinced. 

[MrPotatoTed]

36 minutes ago, vcczar said:

@MrPotatoTed I'm going to "finalize" these changes tomorrow, unless there's significant debate over any of these changes. After that, I'll make a poll in regards to numerical values for updating the Politician Value. My goal is to create it in such a way that the average politician is a score of 50, so weak politicians are below that, and great politicians are higher than that. It's going to take a lot of math. I'll probably have to add up the PV of the 9k politicians (or whatever # we have), then average them, and then just add a number to the title to have the approximate average to where it = 50. 

The offices adding to PV is something I haven't come around to yet. But I'm open to being convinced. 

That seems like way more work than it needs to be.  Take a look at the numbers I proposed above (though I forgot easily overwhelmed).  You don't have to use my system exactly, feel free to change it to whatever feels right to you, but having it be based on their actual value (traits, skills) rather than an arbitrary average would be both easier to calculate and make more sense for the player.  

As for offices, the main argument is for drafting in post 1772 scenarios.  You're naturally going to want to draft the President and other high level folks, and the AI should have that same strategy to make them competitive.

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

As for offices, the main argument is for drafting in post 1772 scenarios.  You're naturally going to want to draft the President and other high level folks, and the AI should have that same strategy to make them competitive.

Yeah, maybe just for active draft. 

[MrPotatoTed]

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Yeah, maybe just for active draft. 

Sure.  Other argument (for full game, not just active draft) would be for things like stealing each other's politicians during the persuasion part of the game. You'd probably rather steal the Senate Majority Whip rather than some 28 year old who might be charismatic but lives in a state where he'll never win election. ;c)

[jnewt]

54 minutes ago, vcczar said:

My goal is to create it in such a way that the average politician is a score of 50, so weak politicians are below that, and great politicians are higher than that.

14 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That seems like way more work than it needs to be. 

Is your intention to have everyone rated on a scale of 0-100, or you just want 50 to be average without any limits in either direction? If the latter, this would be pretty easy to figure out, actually. If you want I could do the math, but basically you’d assign values to each trait, then add up all the values of all the traits that make an “average” politician, which gives you x. Then set ax = 50, solve for a, then multiply the value of each trait by a to get weighted values that would result in the “average” politician being rated 50. If you want it on a scale, then I’d agree it’s probably more work than it’s worth. 
 

I realize I probably didn’t have to type that all out, but I’d be happy to help with that part if you are in fact not setting limits haha

[vcczar]

35 minutes ago, jnewt said:

Is your intention to have everyone rated on a scale of 0-100, or you just want 50 to be average without any limits in either direction? If the latter, this would be pretty easy to figure out, actually. If you want I could do the math, but basically you’d assign values to each trait, then add up all the values of all the traits that make an “average” politician, which gives you x. Then set ax = 50, solve for a, then multiply the value of each trait by a to get weighted values that would result in the “average” politician being rated 50. If you want it on a scale, then I’d agree it’s probably more work than it’s worth. 
 

I realize I probably didn’t have to type that all out, but I’d be happy to help with that part if you are in fact not setting limits haha

0-100 would be ideal. Much of this is because I always liked games, whether Madden NFL Footballl or Romance of the Three Kingdoms, that ranked people using such a scale. It's what I would want if I were just a fan of AMPU. As the creator, I sort of have to sacrifice my own preferences a lot of the time. 

[Willthescout7]

Tbh it does bother me when I see PV over 100...

[vcczar]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:15 PM, vcczar said:

Copy+Pasting this into the right thread:

@MrPotatoTed This is roughly the changes I've been thinking about. This is just a rough draft: 

• Cosmopolitan - 25% chance of +1 in the 10 largest states (EV) in presidential election, but a 25% chance of -1 in state elections such as Gov and US Rep. As US Senate races seem to be less provincial, for whatever reason, they won't get penalized for those taxes. 
• Provincial - 25% chance of +1 in races for Gov and US Rep; 25% chance +1 in home region when running for president; 25% chance of -1 in all other regions outside of home region and 25% chance of -1 in the top 10 EV states, unless it is a home state. 
• Lackey - If a lackey belongs to the party leader's faction, they cannot be converted or manipulated by any other faction leader. A lackey cannot earn "leadership" until the lackey has lost "lackey." A "lackey" cannot be a major candidate for president. 
• Magician - Gets a two die rolls during shenanigan phases during the Congress in Session, and takes the larger number as his die roll. 
• Bookkeeper/Numberfudger - Gets an extra +1/-1 admin while serving as Sec of Treasury, US Bank President, or Chairman of the Fed Reserve. 
• Geostrategists/Naive Strategists - Same as the above but for Sec of State or as Amb or as Nat Sec Adv. 
• Domestic Warrior/Domestic Apathy - Same as the above but for Sec of Labor, Health, HUD, Transportation, Education. 
• Lawful/Illicit - Same as the above but for Att Gen, HL Security.. 
• Crisis Manager/Gov/Admin - During an ongoing crisis.. The president with crisis manager gets a temporary +1 command if a meter is at 1 or 2 and there is a relavant on-going crisis, and they will get +1 to any ability in which the president is needed to resolve an event, action, or legislation. During a domestic or economic crisis, Crisis Gov will have a temporary +1 Gov for the duration of the crisis. Crisis Admin will have a temporary +1 in admin if the crisis is relavant to their office. 

Alright. Unless I missed it, I see no objection to these changes. I'll implement these as soon as I can in the rules.