Suggested fixes Fall 2022

[MrPotatoTed]

2.3:  Confirmed or retained appointees (cabinet, etc) can now gain a random expertise relevant to their field.  This is to address the maddening experience of a Secretary of State serving for 10 years without ever gaining foreign affairs expertise. Haha.

[MrPotatoTed]

Next thing on my list is to specify how Presidents impact implementation.  (It's currently not clear on whether they actually roll, or just offer bonuses/penalties to the cabinet rolls -- it's kind of hinted at, but not specified.)

But I'll call it quits for tonight.  Will try to take on the implementation part tomorrow. if I have time..

[DJBillyShakes]

17 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Incorporated this rule.  Specified that new President will immediately take office with the passage of a succession bill.  Specified that PPT's who inherit the presidency in this way will be treated the same as VP's who inherit the presidency when it comes time for retirement rolls.  Changed drop in domestic stability under this scenario to -1.

Added rule establishing the order in which to fill positions if they all become vacant at once (President first, then VP, then governors, etc on down the line).  In most cases this won't matter, but in the rare case that the order does matter, now we have something in writing.

That's a good solution. The next wrench would be what to do if the successor isn't eligible for the presidency due to being too young or foreign born. For the Speaker or State Secretary, you could use PPT as a backup. If the PPT is ineligible, maybe there could be an emergency PPT election to choose a new PPT who is eligible for the presidency. They would, then, immediately become acting president.

[MrPotatoTed]

22 minutes ago, DJBillyShakes said:

That's a good solution. The next wrench would be what to do if the successor isn't eligible for the presidency due to being too young or foreign born. For the Speaker or State Secretary, you could use PPT as a backup. If the PPT is ineligible, maybe there could be an emergency PPT election to choose a new PPT who is eligible for the presidency. They would, then, immediately become acting president.

That's a good point -- specifically, what to do if the PPT isn't eligible.

[OrangeP47]

51 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

That's a good point -- specifically, what to do if the PPT isn't eligible.

I think V kinda hinted at what to do, force Congress to pass an alternate succession law until it lands on someone who IS eligible.

[ConservativeElector2]

Part of me hopes that there will eventually be alternate succession options to pass like the Chief Justice being third in line for the presidency.

Edited May 26, 2023 by ConservativeElector2

[MrPotatoTed]

@vcczar We need to pin down exactly what the procedure is for if the Presidency becomes vacant and nobody is eligible to succeed under existing laws (such as if VP is vacant and no 3rd in line is named).

Here is what I currently have in the rules (written a few days ago):

 

• If it is not possible to fill the Presidency using existing succession rules (for example, there is no VP and no third-in-line has been specified by legislation yet), then the Senate President Pro Tempore becomes “acting” President until the next Presidential election or a law is passed establishing who the next in line officially should be.  If such a law is passed while the Senate PPT serves in an acting role, the law is immediately followed and the relevant individual becomes President.  The former acting President is now unemployed (unless they were officially named President by law) and is treated as a “Outgoing one-term presidents or VP that finished a presidential term without winning re-election to the office in their own right..” for retirement purposes in 2.10.

• In this scenario (President dies, etc, without a clear successor), domestic stability falls by -1.

This mostly works, I think, but does raise a couple logistical questions:

1)  What happens if the PPT can't serve as President (foreign-born, too young, etc)

2) Does the PPT resign from the Senate to take the acting Presidency seat?  If so, then the Senate must elect a new PPT in his place -- and if they then pass a law saying PPT is 3rd in line, does the NEW PPT get the Presidency? Or does the old PPT keep it?

3)  I think you've previously suggested that Congress should be forced to immediately pass one of the succession laws if such a crisis occurs.  If so, what is the procedure on that (who chooses which succession law to propose,  does it go through committee and at large vote, what if it's rejected...)?

4)  If a succession law does need to be immediately proposed and signed into law...who decides whether to sign it into law, given that there is no President?

[Arkansas Progressive]

Yay, I love a good ol' Hwhaaat? when the Rules are Ambiguous

[DJBillyShakes]

3 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said:

@vcczar We need to pin down exactly what the procedure is for if the Presidency becomes vacant and nobody is eligible to succeed under existing laws (such as if VP is vacant and no 3rd in line is named).

Here is what I currently have in the rules (written a few days ago):

 

• If it is not possible to fill the Presidency using existing succession rules (for example, there is no VP and no third-in-line has been specified by legislation yet), then the Senate President Pro Tempore becomes “acting” President until the next Presidential election or a law is passed establishing who the next in line officially should be.  If such a law is passed while the Senate PPT serves in an acting role, the law is immediately followed and the relevant individual becomes President.  The former acting President is now unemployed (unless they were officially named President by law) and is treated as a “Outgoing one-term presidents or VP that finished a presidential term without winning re-election to the office in their own right..” for retirement purposes in 2.10.

• In this scenario (President dies, etc, without a clear successor), domestic stability falls by -1.

This mostly works, I think, but does raise a couple logistical questions:

1)  What happens if the PPT can't serve as President (foreign-born, too young, etc)

2) Does the PPT resign from the Senate to take the acting Presidency seat?  If so, then the Senate must elect a new PPT in his place -- and if they then pass a law saying PPT is 3rd in line, does the NEW PPT get the Presidency? Or does the old PPT keep it?

3)  I think you've previously suggested that Congress should be forced to immediately pass one of the succession laws if such a crisis occurs.  If so, what is the procedure on that (who chooses which succession law to propose,  does it go through committee and at large vote, what if it's rejected...)?

4)  If a succession law does need to be immediately proposed and signed into law...who decides whether to sign it into law, given that there is no President?

A part of point 2 has an IRL answer. A speaker or PPT who became acting president would have to resign from Congress entirely because a person can't serve in different branches of government at once.

I also looked through Feerick's From Failing Hands, a standard reference on presidential succession law, when he discusses the empty lines of succession under Fillmore, Arthur, and Cleveland. Unfortunately, our forefathers failed to provide answers. All three moved to assemble Congress as quickly as they could to elect Congressional officers. (An interesting historical aside is that Arthur even had a secret proclamation drafted that would summon the Senate to elect a PPT if he died before new officers were chosen.)

Of course, there are always Congressional officers in the game, so none of the historical cases fit our scenario. The closest is Fillmore's. There was no VP or PPT, and the Speaker (playtest president Howell Cobb, fun fact) was too young. But they could solve it by having the Senate elect a new PPT.

Edited May 30, 2023 by DJBillyShakes

[OrangeP47]

I think it's fairly easy to just select a new speaker/ppt, that's not an issue.  I'd say let the former acting pres player pic the law, and while it may not be the most realistic, the "new" one can sign it.  It'd be a hard question IRL so the fact that we struggle too is on brand.

[vcczar]

2 hours ago, OrangeP47 said:

I think it's fairly easy to just select a new speaker/ppt, that's not an issue.  I'd say let the former acting pres player pic the law, and while it may not be the most realistic, the "new" one can sign it.  It'd be a hard question IRL so the fact that we struggle too is on brand.

This. I think. 

[MrPotatoTed]

18 minutes ago, vcczar said:

This. I think. 

Wait, I didn't understand it.

Picking a new PPT is easy, I agree.

But are we saying that the old PPT becomes acting President and then chooses which succession law to propose?  And then...even though there's now an acting President in place...the NEW PPT signs the law as if they were the President?  

We also haven't addressed:

1)  What happens if the PPT can't serve as President (foreign-born, too young, etc)

2) Does the PPT resign from the Senate to take the acting Presidency seat?  If so, then the Senate must elect a new PPT in his place -- and if they then pass a law saying PPT is 3rd in line, does the NEW PPT get the Presidency? Or does the old PPT keep it?

3)   does it go through committee and at large vote, what if it's rejected...)?

 

[MrPotatoTed]

2.3:  I removed the Geostrategist/Naive Strategist bonuses/penalties from Ambassadors, as their position isn't really a strategic one.  If they're assigned to a country, they're supposed to foster positive relations -- there isn't a lot of 4D chess going on there.  

However, I added the Secretary of Defense/War to the positions that gain the bonus/penalty, like Secretary of State already gets.

[vcczar]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Wait, I didn't understand it.

Picking a new PPT is easy, I agree.

But are we saying that the old PPT becomes acting President and then chooses which succession law to propose?  And then...even though there's now an acting President in place...the NEW PPT signs the law as if they were the President?  

We also haven't addressed:

1)  What happens if the PPT can't serve as President (foreign-born, too young, etc)

2) Does the PPT resign from the Senate to take the acting Presidency seat?  If so, then the Senate must elect a new PPT in his place -- and if they then pass a law saying PPT is 3rd in line, does the NEW PPT get the Presidency? Or does the old PPT keep it?

3)   does it go through committee and at large vote, what if it's rejected...)?

 

I think an emergency Congress is formed. The only laws selectable are succession laws. Random player is chosen to select one. It is voted on. Congress doesn't end until one of them is successfully voted on. The bill is automatically signed and cannot be vetoed by the acting president. 

I'm still trying to think of who becomes acting president in this situation. There might need to be a vote for that in the US House. Maybe they all vote (1 vote for each state) among the eligible party leaders. I don't know yet because even those in history wouldn't have known what to do. It's a Constitutional Crisis. I'm open to ideas here. 

[MrPotatoTed]

4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I think an emergency Congress is formed. The only laws selectable are succession laws. Random player is chosen to select one. It is voted on. Congress doesn't end until one of them is successfully voted on. The bill is automatically signed and cannot be vetoed by the acting president. 

I'm still trying to think of who becomes acting president in this situation. There might need to be a vote for that in the US House. Maybe they all vote (1 vote for each state) among the eligible party leaders. I don't know yet because even those in history wouldn't have known what to do. It's a Constitutional Crisis. I'm open to ideas here. 

Maybe we go with my original proposal that the outgoing/deceased/whatever President's party chooses a new Party Leader using the already established rules.  That person (if eligible for it) becomes acting President only long enough to sign into law whatever new succession law gets passed.

We'd still need to establish what happens if that person isn't eligible for the Presidency.

[MrPotatoTed]

Or...we could actually make it a game-over scenario.  It plunges the nation into a crisis that becomes game-ending...

That would certainly be the easiest rule to implement! Haha.

[MrPotatoTed]

@vcczar

I asked ChatGPT what we should do.  Haha.

1. Special Election: You could simulate a special election process where the game triggers a national election to choose a new President. This would involve simulating campaigns, voter preferences, and election outcomes. The winner of the special election would then assume the presidency.

2. Congressional Appointment: Another option is to simulate the scenario where the Congress, specifically the House of Representatives, is responsible for appointing a new President. The game could simulate political maneuvering, lobbying, and negotiations among members of Congress to select a new President.

3. Succession Act: If no Vice President or third-in-line successor has been established, you could create a rule where the game simulates the passage of an emergency succession act by Congress. The act could establish a temporary line of succession or outline a process for selecting a new President, such as convening a joint session of Congress to elect an interim President until a special election can be held.

4. Game Over or Restart: Alternatively, you could consider a game-over condition if the President and Vice President positions are both vacant, and there is no established process to appoint a successor. This would simulate a constitutional crisis or political collapse, leading to the end of the game. Players would need to restart from a previous point or begin a new game.

Special election is an interesting idea we haven't considered yet.  That might be the easiest answer.  Just kick off an immediate Presidential election, and the winner serves as President until the next normal Presidential election.

[vcczar]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

@vcczar

I asked ChatGPT what we should do.  Haha.

1. Special Election: You could simulate a special election process where the game triggers a national election to choose a new President. This would involve simulating campaigns, voter preferences, and election outcomes. The winner of the special election would then assume the presidency.

2. Congressional Appointment: Another option is to simulate the scenario where the Congress, specifically the House of Representatives, is responsible for appointing a new President. The game could simulate political maneuvering, lobbying, and negotiations among members of Congress to select a new President.

3. Succession Act: If no Vice President or third-in-line successor has been established, you could create a rule where the game simulates the passage of an emergency succession act by Congress. The act could establish a temporary line of succession or outline a process for selecting a new President, such as convening a joint session of Congress to elect an interim President until a special election can be held.

4. Game Over or Restart: Alternatively, you could consider a game-over condition if the President and Vice President positions are both vacant, and there is no established process to appoint a successor. This would simulate a constitutional crisis or political collapse, leading to the end of the game. Players would need to restart from a previous point or begin a new game.

Special election is an interesting idea we haven't considered yet.  That might be the easiest answer.  Just kick off an immediate Presidential election, and the winner serves as President until the next normal Presidential election.

It's a good suggestion, but maybe we should have the US House vote on the solution with that being an option? 

[MrPotatoTed]

9 minutes ago, vcczar said:

It's a good suggestion, but maybe we should have the US House vote on the solution with that being an option? 

That just launches us back into the mess of who signs the solution into law, what if that person isn't eligible to serve as President, if it's the PPT turned President and the law they pass is "PPT becomes President" does the acting President become confirmed President or does the brand new PPT get the Presidency instead...etc.

I'd say simplest options are:

1)  Launch a new Presidential election
2)  House chooses a President with all eligible faction leaders as candidates (but this doesn't create an actual succession law, because there's nobody available to sign a bill into a law)
3)  Immediate game over.

Edited May 30, 2023 by MrPotatoTed

[MrPotatoTed]

Heck...we could even roll randomly between those three options, to represent the chaotic unprecedented nature of it all, each time it happens in game.  Haha.

[Murrman104]

I would also suggest the coup mechanics might come up here

[vcczar]

@MrPotatoTed I'll have to research this further. I don't like Special Election as the default or Game Over as the Default. I'm okay with Special Election being an option but the US House must determine that. No matter what it MUST go to the US House because that's what would happen. 

I'll give a scenario. 

George Washington and John Adams are killed in a freak accident. There's no succession law. Possibly their could be a coup--maybe allow that chance if there's a player with certain traits, but if not, the US House meets. They first determine someone to fill as acting president. The vote could go to anyone, not just someone in the US House or US Senate. I'll say party leader, but what if none are elligible? So I'll say, Party Leader. If none are eligible, then the Speaker is automatically chosen perhaps as acting president. If a vote, US House votes but it is by state (1 state, 1 vote). Now that, there's an acting president. The US House is forced to select a succession law with a random faction leader getting to propose one first. Votes continue until a succession law is selected. The CPU will automatically support whatever one is selected, so a conflict will only occur with human players. The bill passes US House and Senate. Acting president is required to sign it into law, Acting President won't be allowed to veto. I think the Acting President will likely serve until the next presidential election, but I'll allow the US House to vote for a Special Election instead. 

I think had Washington and Adams been killed, they would have selected someone like Hancock or Roger Sherman to just fill in until the next election. I think the most likely coup time would have been if Pierce or Buchanan died and there was no succession law and abolitionists and pro-slavery forces were at their most volatile. I think the thing that deters coups is that the military would likely follow Congress in the event that there is no executive. I don't think the military/government allows a coup, and who wins a coup without the military. Most coups occur because the military sides with the people launching the coup or the military is too weak to combat a coup.  

[MrPotatoTed]

22 minutes ago, vcczar said:

@MrPotatoTed I'll have to research this further. I don't like Special Election as the default or Game Over as the Default. I'm okay with Special Election being an option but the US House must determine that. No matter what it MUST go to the US House because that's what would happen. 

I'll give a scenario. 

George Washington and John Adams are killed in a freak accident. There's no succession law. Possibly their could be a coup--maybe allow that chance if there's a player with certain traits, but if not, the US House meets. They first determine someone to fill as acting president. The vote could go to anyone, not just someone in the US House or US Senate. I'll say party leader, but what if none are elligible? So I'll say, Party Leader. If none are eligible, then the Speaker is automatically chosen perhaps as acting president. If a vote, US House votes but it is by state (1 state, 1 vote). Now that, there's an acting president. The US House is forced to select a succession law with a random faction leader getting to propose one first. Votes continue until a succession law is selected. The CPU will automatically support whatever one is selected, so a conflict will only occur with human players. The bill passes US House and Senate. Acting president is required to sign it into law, Acting President won't be allowed to veto. I think the Acting President will likely serve until the next presidential election, but I'll allow the US House to vote for a Special Election instead. 

I think had Washington and Adams been killed, they would have selected someone like Hancock or Roger Sherman to just fill in until the next election. I think the most likely coup time would have been if Pierce or Buchanan died and there was no succession law and abolitionists and pro-slavery forces were at their most volatile. I think the thing that deters coups is that the military would likely follow Congress in the event that there is no executive. I don't think the military/government allows a coup, and who wins a coup without the military. Most coups occur because the military sides with the people launching the coup or the military is too weak to combat a coup.  

That works.  So... step-by-step

1)  Dead President is replaced as party leader (assuming he was one)
2)  House votes between the two party leaders on who will become President, assuming both are eligible. 
2a) If a party leader isn't eligible, the party's candidate becomes the eligible faction leader with the highest PV.  Randomize if tied. 
2b) If somehow no faction leaders are eligible, then the party fails to coalesce around a single candidate and the other party candidate is guaranteed the win
2c) If both parties somehow manage to fail to mount a viable candidate, the eligible politician with the highest PV will become their party's nominee.
2d)  CPU teams vote straight party lines, unless...
- Politicians with integrity will vote for the incumbent party's candidate
- Politicians with "Can be Independent" will vote for candidate closest to their personal ideology.  If tied, vote for their party's candidate.

3)  One vote per state.  Tied states abstain.

4)  Politician who gets the majority of voting states gets the Presidency until the next election.  They are considered un-elected, though incumbent (much like a VP who inherits).

5)  If there's a tie amongst the states, jesus christ, I don't know.  Game over at that point. haha.  Maybe Supreme Court decides between the two candidates, but domestic stability -3 at that point as half the country is, by definition, outraged at whoever they choose.

No need to force a vote on a succession law in this case.  Just double points if a succession law is proposed and passed at the next legislative session.
 

Edited May 30, 2023 by MrPotatoTed

[MrPotatoTed]

Regardless of how it happens...

If the above results in the incumbent party's new party leader becoming the new president = no change, because that's what people expect to happen.

If an incumbent faction leader becomes new president (because party leader wasn't eligible) = -1 domestic stability.

If challenging party leader becomes President = -2 domestic stability.

If challenging faction leader becomes new President (because challenging party leader wasn't eligible) = -3 domestic stability.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by MrPotatoTed

[Arkansas Progressive]

It's crisis, crisis everywhere!