Who should lead Afghanistan?

[MrPotatoTed]

Just now, Hestia said:

Conversely, it's easy to say we need to get out when you have no skin in the game. 

And just to wrap the whole thing up, it's easy for all of us to argue about who should lead Afghanistan when none of us have any skin in the game. ;c)

[Rezi]

8 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

I will give Biden credit for deciding that the violence and heartbreaking chaos would happen on his watch.  As Truman said "The buck stops here."

This. It’s IMO one of the ballsiest things a recent president has done. To be the one who make that hard decision to leave and to do it now, and to double down despite the backlash. Biden hasn’t been deflecting the blame either (even though he could probably fairly deflect some blame to faulty intelligence/the CIA), he’s taking responsibility for what happens

[MrPotatoTed]

5 minutes ago, Rezi said:

This. It’s IMO one of the ballsiest things a recent president has done. To be the one who make that hard decision to leave and to do it now, and to double down despite the backlash. Biden hasn’t been deflecting the blame either (even though he could probably fairly deflect some blame to faulty intelligence/the CIA), he’s taking responsibility for what happens

It's the one benefit of having a President who is ten thousand years old.  ;c)  

[Pringles]

2 hours ago, Rezi said:

Biden hasn’t been deflecting the blame either (even though he could probably fairly deflect some blame to faulty intelligence/the CIA), he’s taking responsibility for what happens

Have you not seen the recent Stephanopoulos interview and the recent press conference where he just walks off? 

He might have taken some responsibility but he gets no admiration from me for his shitty decision and his current conduct. Not only was he out and about during a Foreign Crisis, he ignored Prime Minister Johnson's calls on the matter for over a day. 

This kind of behavior is something I'd expect from Trump. At least Biden isn't just insulting and blabbering on a rant about the press when they ask him a question though... 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Pringles

[vcczar]

1 hour ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Is that not just the colonial powers drawing the borders badly again?

No, the Afghanis would be in charge of it. The UN would have to act as mediators to ensure that the parties can do so with relative harmony. It's sort of like how Peace Treaties are often done with a mediator. I selected the UN because it's more global and it isn't just one power mediating it. I'd be okay with Central Asian mediators, so long as they have no incentive to help one power over the other. 

[Hestia]

2 minutes ago, Pringles said:

He's taken some responsibility but he gets no admiration from me for his shitty decision, and his current conduct. Not only was he out and about during a Foreign Crisis, he ignored Prime Minister Johnson's calls on the matter for over a day. 

 

Wonder where Boris was... 😛 

[Pringles]

Just now, Hestia said:

Wonder where Boris was... 😛 

Wonder where Raab should've been too. 😛 

[Hestia]

Just now, Pringles said:

Wonder where Raab should've been too. 😛 

Goddamnit was France and Germany the only ones at the wheel here? We're screwed! 😛 

[MrPotatoTed]

5 minutes ago, vcczar said:

No, the Afghanis would be in charge of it. The UN would have to act as mediators to ensure that the parties can do so with relative harmony. It's sort of like how Peace Treaties are often done with a mediator. I selected the UN because it's more global and it isn't just one power mediating it. I'd be okay with Central Asian mediators, so long as they have no incentive to help one power over the other. 

Which Aghanis?

[Pringles]

1 minute ago, Hestia said:

Goddamnit was France and Germany the only ones at the wheel here? We're screwed! 😛 

Cue my continued respect for Merkel and her Government that just keeps soaring. 😛 

Let's hope soon to be Scholz lives up to it! He gives me some hope for an SPD 😛 

But dammit, this is Murica, WE GOTTA BE AT THE FKIN WHEEL TOO 

[vcczar]

2 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Which Aghanis?

The various leaders, as I stated. The old government, the Taliban, major tribal leaders of the various ethnic groups. However many as can be identified and are willing to engage in drawing lines for an improved regional map. The mediators will have to help in determining that there isn't any land grabbing. For instance, Pashtuns can't claim land that is overwhelmingly Tajik if the Tajik leaders of that region opposed Pashtun rule, for instance. And vice-versa.

[Pringles]

Just now, Patine said:

No one should be guaranteed to be at the wheel, regardless of seniority, if they're impaired. Let Uncle Sam sober up a bit from his stiff drinks after another embarrassing defeat. 😛

As you know, the drinks Uncle Sam is on depends on the President. Under Trump we had this odd, strange tasting Vodka. 😛 

Now though... it's like Spiced Wine. A cup of Joe is good on the first sip... until you swallow it and it burns the hell out of your throat! Not good! 😛 

[jvikings1]

Afghanistan is a lost cause. The sooner we realize that, the better. The Afghanis has 20 years to build up their strength and got steamrolled in a couple weeks (though the withdrawal was not executed in the best way). It’s up to them to bring freedom to their country, if they do choose.

[Dobs]

2 hours ago, Rezi said:

This. It’s IMO one of the ballsiest things a recent president has done. To be the one who make that hard decision to leave and to do it now, and to double down despite the backlash. Biden hasn’t been deflecting the blame either (even though he could probably fairly deflect some blame to faulty intelligence/the CIA), he’s taking responsibility for what happens

I haven’t seen him take a shred of responsibility though. It’s all been how he was right this whole time and intelligence was wrong or on other days when intelligence said this the whole time. Either way you slice it he was lying either in July or now when he promised no immediate Taliban takeover. 
 

I will not credit a President for taking the country off a cliff just because “someone had to do it”. I’d prefer a President who sees the cliff and brings either a hang glider or just doesn’t jump off the damn cliff!

[Pringles]

4 minutes ago, Dobs said:

I haven’t seen him take a shred of responsibility though. It’s all been how he was right this whole time and intelligence was wrong or on other days when intelligence said this the whole time. Either way you slice it he was lying either in July or now when he promised no immediate Taliban takeover. 
 

I will not credit a President for taking the country off a cliff just because “someone had to do it”. I’d prefer a President who sees the cliff and brings either a hang glider or just doesn’t jump off the damn cliff!

[Rezi]

23 minutes ago, Dobs said:

I haven’t seen him take a shred of responsibility though. 

“I will not pass this responsibility on…nor will I shrink from my share of the responsibility…I am president of the United States of America and the buck stops with me.”

 

 

 

[Timur]

3 hours ago, vcczar said:

The various leaders, as I stated. The old government, the Taliban, major tribal leaders of the various ethnic groups. However many as can be identified and are willing to engage in drawing lines for an improved regional map. The mediators will have to help in determining that there isn't any land grabbing. For instance, Pashtuns can't claim land that is overwhelmingly Tajik if the Tajik leaders of that region opposed Pashtun rule, for instance. And vice-versa.

This reminds me. Afghanistan is a tribal society. That should come into consideration.

[Dobs]

1 hour ago, Rezi said:

“I will not pass this responsibility on…nor will I shrink from my share of the responsibility…I am president of the United States of America and the buck stops with me.”

This is not taking responsibility. This is saying that you take responsibility. It means nothing when you follow it in the same breathe with “I always said this would happen and also no one knew this would happen and also I’m far too cool to answer questions or even speak to our closest allies.”

Those actions speak far louder than his paltry and tone deaf words.

Not a shred of responsibility.

[Rezi]

22 minutes ago, Dobs said:

It means nothing when you follow it in the same breathe with “I always said this would happen and also no one knew this would happen and also I’m far too cool to answer questions or even speak to our closest allies.”

Direct quote on that? Mostly on the first part, not the speaking to allies thing, I know he missed calls from Boris, though he still didn't say anything about it "in the same breath"

Edited August 21, 2021 by Rezi

[vcczar]

53 minutes ago, Timur said:

This reminds me. Afghanistan is a tribal society. That should come into consideration.

That’s what I’m taking into account if you read my full statement

[Timur]

 

19 minutes ago, vcczar said:

That’s what I’m taking into account if you read my full statement

Your post reminded me of it.

[Timur]

50 minutes ago, Patine said:

Mine, that practically said the EXACT same post earlier in the day than yours, DIDN'T remind you of it? I just pointed out how you've paraphrased me shortly after in the same post as if it was your original point, and didn't even recognize my post. And now @vcczar's what reminded you to make that post? Are you paying attention, here? 🤨

 

5 hours ago, Patine said:

For the second or third time, you've paraphrased what I said in a recent post as if it was your innovative contribution and I hadn't pointed it out just previously... 🙄

I did not paraphrase your statements and pretend that they are my original thoughts, as you are implying. I have already read a little about Afghanistan in the past, so I know of it being tribalistic. I didn't paraphrase your post as the post I made reflects my thoughts which may happen to have similar thoughts to yours. I don't remember if your post reminded me or not (I doubt I was even thinking about your post when I wrote my short, quickly-written post), so don't throw accusations of stealing ideas and claiming them as one's own.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Timur

[Timur]

1 minute ago, Patine said:

Be that as it may, you've done something very similar in other threads twice already in the past few weeks, and I said nothing. But I will show grace and drop the issue.

Specific examples?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Timur

[MrPotatoTed]

This reminds me of something I learned from a translator while I was deployed to Iraq.

I was in Iraq 2008-2009, so we were already several years into it by then.  But my Iraqi translator had been there from the start.

Part of the US strategy to achieve peace in Iraq, he told me, had been for the US to get the loyalty of the local sheikhs (kind of a tribe leader), because where the sheikhs went the people would follow.  So we needed to get the sheikhs to endorse us.  And what better way is there to get a sheikh to endorse you than to pay him off?

But we didn't know who the sheikhs actually were.  Not for the whole country.  And so we would just ask a sheikh who the other sheiks were, so we could pay them off too, and soon people were like "Oh yeah and my mother in law is a sheikh, and my cousin's roommate is a sheikh, and my dog is a sheikh, and..."

The word was out: there was free money available to anyone who claimed to be a sheikh.

Anyway, just a word of caution on the whole "all we gotta do is gather up the tribal leaders, give them a map of Afghanistan and a marker, and let them figure that shit out."

Finding the tribal leaders is step one of where it falls apart.

 

[MrPotatoTed]

Here's a fascinating article about the "Make A Sheikh" program: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/08/sheik-down/

The fast-rising, influential, crooked as hell, young and wealthy sheikh who was happy to support the US as long as the US continued to make him rich  featured in this article...was assassinated four years later.