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Jefferson 2nd Term Poll

vcczar

By vcczar
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Jefferson 2nd Term Poll  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. Jefferson's reelection landslide, has shown that the Federalist is now a regional party. How have you adapted as politician?

    • I'm a Jeffersonian or independent, and not a Federalists, so this doesn't affect me.
      10
    • I'm a Jeffersonian or Independent, but I am converting to a Federalists because I'm dissatisfied with Jefferson creating a one-party or no party state.
      0
    • I'm a Federalist. I know which way the wind is blowing. I'll become an independent or Jeffersonian myself.
      5
    • I'm a Federalist and I will hold on as a Federalist until a viable 2nd party emerges (future National Republicans, Whigs, etc.)
      4
    • I am undecided on my future.
      2

  2. 2. You and a few other politicians learned that Jefferson secretly contacted Spain and France to try and purchase and annex Spanish Florida. How do you respond?

    • This is clearly unconstitutional and unethical. Expose Jefferson's secrecy and call for an impeachment trial.
      1
    • This is clearly unconstitutional and unethical, but I see why Jefferson is doing this as it's expedient and beneficial for the nation. Do not expose Jefferson.
      6
    • The ends justify the means. I approve of Jefferson's secret actions.
      12
    • I don't care about this issue.
      2

  3. 3. You learn that Jefferson is interfering in the legislative branch to secretly remove John Randolph of Roanoke (Jefferson's cousin) as floor leader for opposing his Spanish Florida actions.

    • Inform John Randolph of the details you know, work to expose Jefferson, and call for impeachment.
      5
    • Defend Jefferson.
      2
    • Stay out of this drama.
      14

  4. 4. In a meeting with Jefferson, you learn from him that administrator of Louisiana Territory, Gen. James Wilkinson is on the Spanish payroll. He asks for your advise.

    • Aware of how popular Wilkinson is in PA, among military leaders, and among politicians, you advise him against putting him on a court martial or treason trial, as it would be a politcal disaster.
      1
    • Advise Jefferson to call Wilkinson to DC and confront him about it, and consider a light punishment, so as not to lose support in PA, the military, etc.
      11
    • Advise Jefferson to expose Wilkinson and work towards a treason trial or court martial trial, suggesting that Jefferson is too popular to be sunk by destroying the popular Wilkinson.
      8
    • Stay silent, so as not to get involved.
      1

  5. 5. John Randolph of Roanoke formally breaks with Jefferson, leading a new faction within the party known as the Tertium Quids or Old Republicans, a kind of forerunner to Libertarians.

    • I am a Federalist or Independent, so this division is great news.
      9
    • I am a Jeffersonian and I will support the president!
      7
    • Jefferson is no longer a Jeffersonian, I will stand with John Randolph against the "Jeffersonian in Name Only" Jefferson!
      2
    • I could really care less. It's not like Randolph's limited government philosophy will ever be attractive to most Americans, past, present, or future. It's un-American by that measure. Let them live in the wilderness.
      3

  6. 6. Attacks, captures, and intimidation of US shipping by both Great Britain and Napoleonic France has increased. As such, Jefferson calls for a boycott on British goods.

    • As I represent a New England state, heavily reliant on British trade, I cannot support a boycott.
      1
    • I opposed the boycott on purely partisan grounds.
      0
    • I oppose the boycott as it could hurt the economy.
      7
    • I support the boycott out of principle. We can't let Great Britain bully us!
      7
    • I support the boycott because Jefferson is my party's leader.
      1
    • I support the boycott primarily because it's a better alternative to war.
      5
    • I am uninterested in this debate.
      0

  7. 7. You have been approached by both Gen. James Wilkinson and Andrew Jackson this week. Both confide that they are considering joining ex-VP Aaron Burr in his quest to build a new American empire in the West.

    • Nod your head and appear friendly, but say nothing and do nothing.
      5
    • Hear them out, but quickly write Jefferson to let him know about the conspiracy.
      16
    • Hear them out, and later inform them that "you're in," and try to help sway the two of them to full commitment, so that you can join Burr in leading a new nation.
      0

  8. 8. Jefferson orders his former VP Aaron Burr arrested for treason. Among those attempting to capture him are Andrew Jackson, who had been considering joining Burr.

    • Stay in DC and let the events unfold.
      13
    • Join in with Jackson in attempting to capture Aaron Burr.
      7
    • Join in with James Wilkinson in secretly protecting Burr as long as you can without detection before pretending to help capture him.
      0
    • Defend Burr to the best of your abilities.
      1

  9. 9. James Monroe secures a treaty with Great Britain and sends it to Jefferson, who immediately wants to reject it by not sending it to the US Senate.

    • Urge Jefferson to sign the treaty to avoid war.
      8
    • Agree with Jefferson as the treaty does not end British impressment, does not open trade in the British West or East Indies, and only demands the US to open trade with the British in US ports. It only prevents possible war.
      12
    • This is too convoluted a matter for me to give any advice.
      1

  10. 10. At Burr's Trial, Wilkinson, pretending to not been part of the plan, testifies on the details of Burr's plan, leading Jefferson to call martial law in Louisiana. Jefferson is also rumored to be interfering in the trial against his former VP.

    • I support both actions by Jefferson. Burr and his allies get what they deserve.
      3
    • I support Jefferson calling martial law, in the event that other Burrites are influential in the area, but I oppose Jefferson's interference in an impeachment trial.
      8
    • I oppose Jefferson calling martial law against US citizens, but I support Jefferson's involvement with the impeachment trial, as Jefferson may have information others do not.
      7
    • I oppose both of these actions, and Jefferson ought to be impeached!
      3

  11. 11. The British warship, the Leopard fires on the USS Chesapeake, a US warship. Jefferson calls a special session of Congress.

    • Vote against any punishment for Great Britain, suggesting diplomacy only.
      3
    • Vote for an embargo as an alternate to war, coupled with diplomacy, which is supported by Jefferson and Sec of State Madison but opposed by Sec of Treasury Gallatin
      12
    • Now is the time for war! Jefferson may have greatly reduced the army and replaced most our ships with small gunboats incapable of sailing in the Atlantic, but we must defend our honor!
      4
    • I don't know
      2

  12. 12. Jefferson declines a 3rd term, desiring to follow Washington's two-term lead.

    • Try and convince Jefferson to run for a 3rd term, especially amid the crisis.
      1
    • While I support Jefferson, I am happy with his decision and we will do well with Madison or Monroe in the future.
      12
    • I do not support Jefferson, so who cares.
      7
    • I have no real opinion here.
      1

  13. 13. The Republican Nomination Caucus meets to select a successor to Jefferson. Who do you pick?

    • I am a Federalist or Independent, so I can't partake in this vote.
      12
    • I am a Jeffersonian, and vote for Jefferson's preference: James Madison.
      6
    • I am a Jefferson, and not wanting a 3rd Virginian president for the 4th president, I support VP George Clinton of NY.
      2
    • I am a Jeffersonian of the Tertium Quid faction, and I support James Monroe, as the only of the three candidates still true and pure with the original Jeffersonian principals.
      1

  14. 14. Sec of Treasury Gallatin proposed a massive infrastructure project, but Jefferson rejects it because he thinks it is unconstitutional.

    • Argue that the proposal is "necessary and proper"
      11
    • Call for a Constitutional Amendment to allow government funds for projects such as these.
      7
    • Support Jefferson
      2
    • I have no interest in domestic affairs.
      1

  15. 15. The embargo is proving to be an economic disaster. Who is at fault?

    • Jefferson and the Jeffersonian Congress for issuing the embargo, which strangles Northern trade and industries.
      4
    • The Northern states for refusing to fully comply with the embargo, even though they are dependent on trade with Great Britain.
      5
    • The embargo will still prove to be the right move. It delays war, allows us to negotiate. It's well-worth a temporary economic downturn. No one is at fault.
      10
    • I am not an economist. I don't know who is at fault.
      2

  16. 16. Jefferson admits to you that he's mentally checking out. He states he will no longer advocate laws to Congress and that he will sign whatever they send him.

    • Check on Jefferson regularly to make sure he doesn't off himself.
      3
    • Realize that Jefferson is tired of politics and the presidency and let him know that he'll be free in just a few more months.
      11
    • Tell him to resign if he can't commit himself 100%
      5
    • Do nothing and say nothing.
      2

  17. 17. Who do you support in the 1808 Election?

    • Jeffersonian: James Madison of VA/George Clinton of NY
      15
    • Federalist: CC Pinkney of SC/Rufus King of NY.
      6

  18. 18. During the lame duck period, some Northerners are discussing the possibility of secession.

    • I encourage the North to secede if they have unity to do so.
      0
    • I oppose secession, even if it might make them happier. The Union forever!
      19
    • I have no real opinion here.
      2

  19. 19. On his last day in office, Jefferson is given a bill to repeal and replace the embargo with a much weaker, but more economic-friendly, non-intercourse bill

    • Suggest Jefferson sign the bill for the good of the country. The embargo has punished us more than Great Britain.
      14
    • Advise him not to sign as it makes it appear that he admits the embargo was a mistake.
      2
    • Advise him not to sign for the fact that pulling back on an embargo gives a win to Great Britain when they haven't done anything to deserve it.
      5

  20. 20. As you see Jefferson leave office, how do you rank Jefferson as a president?

    • He's been better than Washington and Adams as he's greatly expanded the nation, seen more political unity, and has generally been wildly popular.
      4
    • He's been better than Washington or Adams but not both.
      12
    • He's been a worse president than both, mostly due to his 2nd term embargo, secrecy, and growing national disharmony.
      5

  21. 21. As you see the 5'4" 100 lbs Madison take the oath of office, how do you feel about the next 4 to 8 years?

    • I feel more confident in Madison than Jefferson
      7
    • I feel Madison will be a continuation of Jefferson, whatever that might mean.
      9
    • I feel Madison will be noticably worse than Jefferson as a president.
      1
    • As a Federalists, I am near tears and sorrow for my country. We can't go through another 4 or 8 more years under Jeffersonians.
      2
    • I have no real thoughts on this other than that he's the size of a Middle Schooler.
      2

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ConservativeElector2

ConservativeElector2

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2 hours ago, vcczar said:

I had time to write this. It just takes like 90 minute to 2 hours for me to fill these out. Sometimes I lose everythign I type. I wish there was a way to save polls that aren't yet finished. 

Maybe you could pre-write your questions and respective answers in a .txt document or something like that and copy/paste it later. I do that with homeworks, I have to insert somewhere.

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vcczar

vcczar

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1 minute ago, ConservativeElector2 said:

Maybe you could pre-write your questions and respective answers in a .txt document or something like that and copy/paste it later. I do that with homeworks, I have to insert somewhere.

I’d have to do that with all the responses to each question too and it just adds a middle step I want to avoid. They just need to add a function to save polls. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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Forgot to tag people:

@A man from Colorado @Alexander-Nicholas @Arkansas Progressive @Beetlejuice @Bloot911 @bradleyg223 @Brunell @Cenzonico @Cal @carbonmonoxide321 @ConservativeElector2 @DakotaHale @Dobs @DJBillyShakes @ebrk85 @Edouard @Entrecampos @Eugene @Fbarbarossa @Ghostie @Hestia @HiyarAgasi @Ich_bin_Tyler @Ishan @jnewt @Joe303300 @jvikings1 @Kitten @Largo833 @Lars @Murrman104 @Magnus Rex @Mark_W @mark2 @matthewyoung123 @MrPotatoTed @NYRepublican @OrangeP47 @Pringles @pilight @pman @Rezi @Rodja @SilentLiberty @ShortKing @Sean F Kennedy @The Blood @themiddlepolitical @Timur @TZMB @vcczar @Vols21 @vjw @WVProgressive @Willthescout7 @Zenobiyl

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OrangeP47

OrangeP47

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I feel like there's some mood-whiplash in the answers this time, because my positions are slightly more nuanced this time around than they've been in any of the other polls.  Perhaps because, once again, it's time to antagonize Britain.  It actually makes me agree with Jefferson more than I'd care to.  General mood this term could probably be summed up as "still a partisan hack, but less grumpy now".

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Alexander-Nicholas

Alexander-Nicholas

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I agreed with Jefferson somewhat in his first term though i feel myself shifting to being an Independent. my old party is dead and i cant abide by a president using secret actions to advance the country.  my stance is simple, if we let him use secret means to take over Spanish Florida, it sets a precedent that over presidents can do the same thing and that's a slippery slope just like removing someone for not sharing your views. Never mind trying to interfere in a trial, my views of the man would shift into distrust. I do feel I would be left out in the cold somewhat, my old party has exploded and I don't exactly fit in with the democratic-republicans. we need national improvements to connect the country, we need industry to grow.  My best bet is to stay out of drama, and hope a new party comes along one that. One thing we have to do is stand up as a nation, doing whatever it takes to avoid war as we aren't strong enouth but not letting others bully us. And as much as i find myself not siding with the democratic republicans, i have to do what is right to keep Pinckney from office. hopefully in four years, we can have another option better then Pinckney. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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49 minutes ago, Alexander-Nicholas said:

I agreed with Jefferson somewhat in his first term though i feel myself shifting to being an Independent. my old party is dead and i cant abide by a president using secret actions to advance the country.  my stance is simple, if we let him use secret means to take over Spanish Florida, it sets a precedent that over presidents can do the same thing and that's a slippery slope just like removing someone for not sharing your views. Never mind trying to interfere in a trial, my views of the man would shift into distrust. I do feel I would be left out in the cold somewhat, my old party has exploded and I don't exactly fit in with the democratic-republicans. we need national improvements to connect the country, we need industry to grow.  My best bet is to stay out of drama, and hope a new party comes along one that. One thing we have to do is stand up as a nation, doing whatever it takes to avoid war as we aren't strong enouth but not letting others bully us. And as much as i find myself not siding with the democratic republicans, i have to do what is right to keep Pinckney from office. hopefully in four years, we can have another option better then Pinckney. 

I think Jefferson was probably clinically paranoid if you read his letters. He managed it waaaay better than those usually clinically paranoid. It's a major reason for his secretiveness and control-freak tendencies. His first term was rather peaceful, but his 2nd term required him to act. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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21 minutes ago, DakotaHale said:

Why was he so popular for his time period?

Well, the unpopular stuff he did was secretive and outside of public view, aside from the embargo. 

To most Americans, he more than double the size of the country, saw expanded voting rights for white men, saw more affordable land available, decreased the size of the military (which was popular then), stood up to the pirates and to the British. He was only losing popularity in New England and NYC. Jefferson was also rarely blamed by his supporters. If the economy was suffering because of the embargo, it was the Sec of Treasury, Congress, New Englanders, or the British. 

There are so many letters of Jefferson telling someone to do something and then saying he won't personally do something as he doesn't want to interfere, then telling the person to rewrite a passage he wrote in their handwritng, and then destroy the letter. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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Just some comments on Monroe. He’s an interesting politician. I didn’t know that much about his early career, but he was painfully shy and needed people to introduce him to others. He didn’t speak to Madison for several years because he hadn’t an introduction, for instance. He was well-connected early because his uncle was a politician. However, he was interested in the military but had difficulties getting a field command and tired of being a staff officer. He also was very hit or miss in winning elections. He first came to prominence in 1786 opposing a treaty with Spain. He was shocked to not be named to the Consitutional Convention and would later oppose its ratification. By 1790, the old anti federalists, aside from Patrick Henry, in Virginia we’re seeing Monroe as the leader of the next generation of limited government politicians despite not having done much other than taking positions on issues when he happened to hold office. What’s interesting is that of the first 6 presidents, all but John Adams are introverted. Adams is only arguably introverted. It could be possible that Jackson is the first extrovert. If not him, Van Buren is definitely an extrovert. I always thought Monroe was an extrovert and this is the first book I’ve read that shows he clearly isn’t, although he may just lack confident early on. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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Using the Myers-Briggs personality types and the bios I’ve read, I’d guess the following:

GW is an ISTJ, although possible ISFJ. 
JA is ENTP, but he could be INTP. 
TJ is INTJ for sure. 
JMa is INTP or INTJ. 
JMo so far is ISFJ or ISFP
 

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Pringles

Pringles

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6 hours ago, vcczar said:

Using the Myers-Briggs personality types and the bios I’ve read, I’d guess the following:

GW is an ISTJ, although possible ISFJ. 
JA is ENTP, but he could be INTP. 
TJ is INTJ for sure. 
JMa is INTP or INTJ. 
JMo so far is ISFJ or ISFP
 

If those tests have any merit I’m closest to Jefferson. I’ve consistently gotten INFJ when I used to take it a couple years ago. 

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vcczar

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2 minutes ago, Pringles said:

If those tests have any merit I’m closest to Jefferson. I’ve consistently gotten INFJ when I used to take it a couple years ago. 

I always get ENFP, but I’m really close to the middle on everything but N. I’m 100% N pretty much. I’m like 55% E and F. I’m probably like 75% P. I’m fairly disorganized. 

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Pringles

Pringles

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20 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I always get ENFP, but I’m really close to the middle on everything but N. I’m 100% N pretty much. I’m like 55% E and F. I’m probably like 75% P. I’m fairly disorganized. 

Basically same. I'm strongest on N as well iirc. Something over 80%. Introvert is like 55-45. Rest I don't really remember. 

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vcczar

vcczar

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AArgh! Ok, I just spend 45 minutes writing the Madison poll and accidentally exited out of it and lost everything. it's going to take me a bit until I get my morale up to retype everything all over again. They really need to add a funtion that saves polls. My polls take over an hour to type up and it's almost not even worth it. If I use the copy+paste method, moving stuff over from a word doc to the poll, the back and forth of doing that for questions and answers would extend that time by like 10 or 15 min, when my chance of losing my poll seems to be about 10%. I have like 100 more polls left, so that would be 1,000 minutes of copy+pasting (I think). Not worth my time. 

I'll continue it, but I got to wait until I want to do it all over again. Might be Friday, might be next week, might be when I finish the Monroe book I'm reading. 

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OrangeP47

OrangeP47

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4 hours ago, vcczar said:

AArgh! Ok, I just spend 45 minutes writing the Madison poll and accidentally exited out of it and lost everything. it's going to take me a bit until I get my morale up to retype everything all over again. They really need to add a funtion that saves polls. My polls take over an hour to type up and it's almost not even worth it. If I use the copy+paste method, moving stuff over from a word doc to the poll, the back and forth of doing that for questions and answers would extend that time by like 10 or 15 min, when my chance of losing my poll seems to be about 10%. I have like 100 more polls left, so that would be 1,000 minutes of copy+pasting (I think). Not worth my time. 

I'll continue it, but I got to wait until I want to do it all over again. Might be Friday, might be next week, might be when I finish the Monroe book I'm reading. 

Know that feel, my condolences.

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vcczar

vcczar

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Almost through Madison's presidency in the Monroe book. I could theoretically do Madison's first term poll again, but I'm just going to wait until I get to a better stopping point. 

This book really makes Madison seem like he's out of his league. Just about 8/10th of Madison's appointments are thoroughly incompetent people and he keeps giving people way more chances than they deserve. The generals are almost all inexperienced, squabbling with each other. Monroe, despite being generally competent, messes things up by interfereing in other people's jobs about half the time. 

One interesting figure is James A Armstrong Jr, someone I've known about for a while, but the book really illustrates his rivalry with Monroe. Both Monroe and Armstrong wanted to be the next president. They both knew this. Madison knew this. Monroe and Armstrong fought each other more than they fought the British in the War of 1812. Both were trying to build an army, hoping they could lead it personally. Armstrong filled the Dept of War with cronies and would promote newspaper editors so that the papers would support him. Monroe would try to run the War Department whenever Armstrong was away meeting with generals, causing a lot of confusion. Armstrong did promote a lot of younger generals, such as Winfield Scott, Jacob Brown, and Andrew Jackson. But he also held on to General James Wilkinson and Henry Dearborn, who were incompetent. Madison was hands off on generals, so he would let them fail frequent times. Armstrong was so disagreeable that even his appointed generals would oppose him. William Henry Harrison resigns because of Armstrong and Wilkinson. Madison's ony really military decision is to create a district to defend DC, but he appoints inexperienced Federalist William Windor as the general, primarily because as a Federalist he won't be "Monroe's Man" or "Armstrong's Man" during their ongoing squabbling. Armstrong eventually gets Windor more on his side. Throughout all of this Armstrong is openly calling Madison weak. There's one battle right before DC is captured, but the British easily win the battle. Part of the issue is that Monroe interferes with troop placement, causing confusion. 

I knew the general gist of all of this, but not the specific details and letters. Although I haven't gotten to it in this book, I know Armstrong gets fired after DC is captured and burned. This pretty much kills Armstrong's presidential hopes and political future, although he lives until the 1840s! 

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vcczar

vcczar

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31 minutes ago, Imperator Taco Cat said:

@vcczar I don't want to put pressure on you but are you going to post it soon?

I doubt it. I feel swamped with things I'm doing right now. The main deterrent is having to post each question and each answer into a cell and the fact that I lose everything about 20% of the time I make really long polls. 

So until there is better polling software or I end up breaking a way from a project or RP for a long period of time, I'll refrain from making another one. It takes 90 min to make those polls, provided I don't lose what I'm typing. That's 90 minutes I could be reading the bios or working on another project. 

I wouldn't mind typing out the info that someone else can copy+paste into a poll. I'd probably be able to do that in about 30-45 minute's time, since I'm not having to go through all the polling cells. 

I've also considered starting over, typing out a year in US history as a thread and then just asking people what they'd do during that year based on current events for that year. 

I have a bad habit of taking on too many projects. I really need to cut down on what I'm doing. I don't think I've actually relaxed in 3 years. I just go from thing to thing to thing throughout the day, sometimes multiple things at once. I'd probably be more efficient and happier if I reduced things by half. 

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