jvikings1 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 Just now, Patine said: Although, not truly knowing about Kavanaugh's guilt or innocence, I do believe the process was abnormally rushed by Trump and McConnell to prevent it becoming a trial and significant evidence and testimony potentially being brought to bear - which did, indeed, look suspicious, you must admit. The only thing suspicious was the timing of the accusations. There was no credible evidence, and the accuser’s own testimony was severely flawed and full of holes. If the Senate were to delay the process for baseless accusations, they would be used as a political tool as often as possible. I wasn’t a fan of the nomination. But the moment the Democrats attempted to destroy his life based on these allegations, I supported confirmation out of principle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Patine said: Manchin seems to be more Socially Conservative than Trump, but Trump was put above him, any of the Democrats should be above a convicted trafficker of underage girls like Graetz to a Social Conservative, but only Manchin is above him of them. Or, is pimping little girls forgivable compared to espousing some Neo-Liberal Socially Progressive rhetoric that's fairly mild compared to many other Left-leaning movements in a lot of other countries outside the U.S.? That last part could be directed at @jvikings1, too. As far as I know he hasn't been convicted of any charges so far and I am not inclined to listen to any unnamed sources... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 13 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: As far as I know he hasn't been convicted of any charges so far and I am not inclined to listen to any unnamed sources... https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-timeline-allegations-sex-trafficking-joel-greenberg-doj-investigation-2021-5 Some of the sources are named. It'd be wise to look at the actual accusations before making such statements. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Hestia said: https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-timeline-allegations-sex-trafficking-joel-greenberg-doj-investigation-2021-5 Some of the sources are named. It'd be wise to look at the actual accusations before making such statements. That's what I did. The first line in Wikipedia says: "In March 2021, The New York Times reported that three unnamed sources had revealed the Department of Justice was investigating Gaetz for having a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old girl in 2019...". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: That's what I did. The first line in Wikipedia says: "In March 2021, The New York Times reported that three unnamed sources had revealed the Department of Justice was investigating Gaetz for having a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old girl in 2019...". There are several others referenced in the story that at least heavily allude to it, and talk about other egregious similar acts. Named sources which include a Republican state lawmaker. Edited August 6, 2021 by Hestia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, Patine said: Although it doesn't specifically say in the U.S. Constitution (though it should), a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court should be of impeccable and unbesmirched repute - not just satisfy a Senate hearing of more and more along partisan WW1 trenchlines. Baseless accusations should not damage one's character. But that is the dangerous precedent our society continues to move toward. However with such an unrealistic standard, those baseless accusations must be ignored like they aren't even there in the first place when navigating such an issue in a hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, Patine said: Unproven allegations are not necessarily the same as baseless allegations anymore than allegations alone necessarily equal guilt. it works both ways, there. Cavalier dismissal is just as bad as witch-hunting. Accusations with no evidence and contradictory stories are baseless. That is what was present in the Kavanaugh case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Hestia said: There are several others referenced in the story that at least heavily allude to it, and talk about other egregious similar acts. Named sources which include a Republican state lawmaker. If proven guilty Gaetz should definitely resign. I'm conflicted about forced resignations. While I highly recommend them for intolerable behavior, I also think as long as voters elect someone into an office again it's their will to be represented by these people. It's difficult... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: If proven guilty Gaetz should definitely resign. I'm conflicted about forced resignations. While I highly recommend them for intolerable behavior, I also think as long as voters elect someone into an office again it's their will to be represented by these people. It's difficult... I'm not saying he has to resign *now*. If it is proven, which I am fairly confident it will, he should most definitely resign or be thrown from the House. It definitely should impact how other people view him, at the very least. Particularly even if you read just what the named sources said - including the state Rep from Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 32 minutes ago, Patine said: No, they are, "unproven." "Baseless," is a different term (usually, though not always, tied to, "fabricated," "delusional," "manipulative," or, "sensationalist attention-seeking"). That definition fits the allegations against Kavanaugh. Under your ridiculous standard, all allegations would be unproven unless there was direct evidence to counteract those allegations (thus putting the burden of proof on the accused). Once again, that is asking for allegations of misconduct to be used as a political tool (which is insulting to actually victims). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Hestia said: There are several others referenced in the story that at least heavily allude to it, and talk about other egregious similar acts. Named sources which include a Republican state lawmaker. It is important to note that being a scumbag is not a crime. If he didn't violate a statute, then a lot of this stuff could be true but not criminal. It doesn't surprise me that he would have this reputation, as he seems like one of those lifelong frat-boy types (and the statements from those around him seem to back this up). But that does not mean he is a criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, jvikings1 said: It is important to note that being a scumbag is not a crime. If he didn't violate a statute, then a lot of this stuff could be true but not criminal. It doesn't surprise me that he would have this reputation, as he seems like one of those lifelong frat-boy types (and the statements from those around him seem to back this up). But that does not mean he is a criminal. No, not at all, you are quite right. It's possible that none of this is true (small possibility as I believe it is). I'm just saying that putting it all together, it makes the whole story that much more believable. I'm sure we will know the truth of it all within good time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConservativeElector2 Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 22 minutes ago, Hestia said: I'm not saying he has to resign *now*. I didn't intend to say that. I just stated my view 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 31 minutes ago, ConservativeElector2 said: If proven guilty Gaetz should definitely resign. I'm conflicted about forced resignations. While I highly recommend them for intolerable behavior, I also think as long as voters elect someone into an office again it's their will to be represented by these people. It's difficult... And I suppose this comes down to what a person thinks. I think a district can usually find someone else they would either rather be represented by, or are satisfied being represented by. Most of the time, the person doesn't really make a difference. This could be attributed to Cuomo as well - I fervently (as a Democrat) believe that he should resign. Or be impeached and thrown out of office. What he did was clearly wrong. It's a stance that I will attribute to anybody, regardless of party. Gaetz (should he be convicted by the DOJ or others), would fall into the same category for me. Currently, he does for me personally but I do understand those who don't feel the same and will wait for the process to play out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 9 hours ago, Edouard said: Joe Biden Because I like most of his views and despite his flaws he is a good person, his family life is a testimony of who he is Bernie Sanders I like the man, but I disagree with the politician on some economic issues Kamala Harris She has a lack of political identity but she seems to be a fine woman Nancy Pelosi I think that she is a cold ruler, but politically she brought positive things in her career 2nd bracket Alexander Ocasio-Cortez I think that the girl is a good person, but her radicalism afraids me on some things Joe Manchin I think he is a man of principle who represents his state but by doing so he does not stand as a particulary good person, just a reliable one to his comittments toward his party and his voters Mitt Romney I think he is a man of dignity but I have serious and real disagreements with him. For me faith and politic should be separated, while for him religion is an important part of his political life 3rd bracket Rand Paul I think that he is a hypocrite on many issues but he tries to be moderate despite coming from Kentucky Ron DeSantis Electoralist and does not seem trustworthy but he is not crazy. 4th bracket Ted Cruz Huge hypocrite but good speaker Mitch McConnell Huge hypocrite Donald Trump Seems to be an autocrat on his temperament, has put a country in danger for his own sore loser behavior I don't know enough about the 2 remaining Matt Gaetz Ilhan Omar Interesting views, even though I don't agree on everything. Is AOC considered radical in Europe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 So far, (Edouard's list I did not count because he did not rank Gaetz and Omar) Biden 121 Romney 108 Manchin 107 Sanders 100 Harris 99 Harris 89 DeSantis 86 Paul 84 AOC 82 McConnell 73 Omar 68 Cruz 61 Gaetz 39 Trump 37 --- If I count Edouard's list and give 12 points to the top, Biden 133 Manchin 114 Romney 114 Sanders 111 Pelosi 108 Harris 99 AOC 90 DeSantis 90 Paul 89 McConnell 75 Omar 68 Cruz 64 Gaetz 39 Trump 38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean F Kennedy Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 (edited) Positive Sanders Biden Lean Positive Romney Harris Meh AOC Omar Lean Negative Pelosi Manchin DeSantis Negative Paul Mcconnell Zodiac Killer Cruz People with serious allegations of pedophilia Trump Gaetz Edited August 7, 2021 by Sean F Kennedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 Ron DeSantis Rand Paul Joe Manchin Donald Trump Mitt Romney Joe Biden Ted Cruz Matt Gaetz Nancy Pelosi Kamala Harris Alexander Ocasio-Cortez Mitch McConnell Bernie Sanders Ilhan Omar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 9 minutes ago, Patine said: Donald Trump fourth. I think you just watching the White House Reality Show for entertainment and don't really care about the bad Government or embarassing, incompetent, impulsive "leadership," (quotation marks used advisedly). Not to mention that the mention that United State as a nation, and it's promotion, prosperity, and advancement are an IMMENSELY distant second priority to Trump's ego and self-promotion to him - not a very good patriotic leader, especially given Constitutional law and limits on power are even further down (though every U.S. President from FDR on is REALLY bad for this almost treasonous prioritization - Trump was just a Hell of a lot more vocal about it). Having 🏛️ to call 📲 a judge 👩⚖ “your 👉 honor” is so cringey and dumb 👅😦 “Your 🍪 Honor”. I 💸 mean 😏 gimmie a fuckin’ 👉👌 break, 💔 dude. 🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖 What 👉 else 🙅♀️ do 💃🏻 you 🙋🏻♀️ want 👏👏 me 🦵🏻🍑🦵🏻 to call 📞 you? 😊 Your 🙈 highness? Do 🤛 you 😘 want 🥞 me 👈 to fondle your 👉💲 nuts 🥜💦💦 while ⏳👶 I 👄 blow 🍃 you, 😊 too? 🤷♀️ I’ve 🤩 seriously 😒 seen 👀 courtrooms where 😾🌎 they’ll 👯♂️ say 😡 “Sir” 👨👨👨 and the judge 👩⚖️ will 🔥💦 be 🐝🐝 like 😄 “It’s “Your 👈 Honor” young 👶🏿 man!!” 👨🏻 Fuck 🐷 off. 🌽🍌💦 How 💯 much 🙊🙊 of an egotist you 👉🏻 gotta 🙏🏼 be 🐝 to care 💅 about 💦 some 🍯🤔 medieval-ass title? It’s some 🤩 LARPING I’d 🙏 expect 📝 kids 👩 to do. 👩😂 “Oh 🙀 Billy you 👉 have 🈶 to call 🤩 me 🥺 supreme ruler 📏 snorlax the magical ✨ wizard!!1!” Shut 🐢 up. 💴 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, Patine said: Donald Trump fourth. I think you just watching the White House Reality Show for entertainment and don't really care about the bad Government or embarassing, incompetent, impulsive "leadership," (quotation marks used advisedly). Not to mention that the mention that United State as a nation, and it's promotion, prosperity, and advancement are an IMMENSELY distant second priority to Trump's ego and self-promotion to him - not a very good patriotic leader, especially given Constitutional law and limits on power are even further down (though every U.S. President from FDR on is REALLY bad for this almost treasonous prioritization - Trump was just a Hell of a lot more vocal about it). I will 100% stand by my support of the former President on policy as compared to Biden. First Step Act, Abraham Accords, Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, North Korean summits, appointing conservative SCOTUS justices, Great American Outdoors Act, American energy independence, a secured border, no major wars or conflicts, best economy/stock market/inflation rates pre-COVID, business deregulation, etc., were all big wins in my book. If you want to talk personality or rhetoric, I would most certainly rather get chocolate chocolate chip ice cream and craft beer and talk old cars with Biden than go into a Twitter feud with Trump. But policy-wise, I tend to prefer what he had vs what we have now. However I look forward to you nitpicking one of my listed accomplishments as being a dramatic failure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Patine said: Donald Trump fourth. I think you just watching the White House Reality Show for entertainment and don't really care about the bad Government or embarassing, incompetent, impulsive "leadership," (quotation marks used advisedly). Not to mention that the mention that United State as a nation, and it's promotion, prosperity, and advancement are an IMMENSELY distant second priority to Trump's ego and self-promotion to him - not a very good patriotic leader, especially given Constitutional law and limits on power are even further down (though every U.S. President from FDR on is REALLY bad for this almost treasonous prioritization - Trump was just a Hell of a lot more vocal about it). Even though I might agree with some of what you're getting at, trump is the bottom of my list... no answer to the question. no room to comment. 😛 Let's see your list... unless you're too scared to do it that is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 Just now, Patine said: @DakotaHale @vcczar @Dobs @MrPotatoTed Which among you now says that this is NOT trolling? And, again, like the majority of cases with this troll of a poster, I wasn't even addressing, tagging, or trying to, "goad," him - I was making a fairly standard point about a topic that most on this forum wouldn't even disagree with. So, which of you NOW says this isn't trolling, and constant, repeat, and targeted trolling, for that matter? It's just a copypasta shitpost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Patine said: That is a tool that can be (and is) used for trolling, just like meming can, and is. Not all copypasta or meming is trolling, but this poster's past behaviour, past posts, and other indicate it is in this, and most other cases. Now, is this going to be taken seriously? Unlike most others I have had issues with, this jackass doesn't even need to tagged or mentioned by me (which I extremely rarely do, except when complaining about his odious conduct) - he leaps out of nowhere in conversations he's a part of JUST to pull shit like this. The first amendment includes the ability to tag people in shitposts. It also allows you to call him a "jackass". Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you react to it. Reacting to troll comments encourages further trolling. Take it from the guy who trolled tf out of the last forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Patine said: Is this misquoted? It looks like it should be addressed at @DakotaHale's post, and seems nonsensical when addressed at mine. I think the first part was addressed to me and obviously the last part to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaHale Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Patine said: Privately-owned and -run forums and online platforms deviate significantly from First Amendment guarantees. It's like shopping mall security can remove you from the premises, and even ban you, even if what you're doing is protected by the First Amendment. The foremost policy of this forum is the 1st Amendment 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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