Era of Ideologies: Playtest from 1928

[MrPotatoTed]

Just now, Umbrella said:

I do, but when we did it last time, it didn't match what I was expecting, so obviously I didn't understand correctly.  I didn't see anything about multiple card allowances in the rules though.  I'm just trying to figure it out.  I'll wait to see how the cards are distributed, and if it doesn't match what I think should have happened, I'll ask specific questions.

No problem. I expanded on my answer above a bit, hopefully that helps. Let me know if it doesn't!

[Umbrella]

5 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

No problem. I expanded on my answer above a bit, hopefully that helps. Let me know if it doesn't!

OK, ideologies makes sense now, and I was doing it wrong.  I'll wait and see how the lobbies and interests play out.

[Murrman104]

Just now, Umbrella said:

OK, ideologies makes sense now, and I was doing it wrong.  I'll wait and see how the lobbies and interests play out.

If it makes you feel better i was also talking to @ebrk85 about this exact topic yesterday trying to figure out why i got certain lobbys and realising i need to try and start a decades long scheme to get a better interest for my faction 

[Umbrella]

Yeah, I feel like I am being so dense here.  Pardon my ignorance, but I'm going to step through how I think it should work:

1. Using what Ted said, ShortKing gets liberals, Ebrk85, matthewyoung, RedRight get moderates, Murrman gets conservatives, jnewt and PotatoTed get liberals, I get moderates, BlueRight gets conservatives, Largo gets Traditionalists.  This is based on the highest number each faction has.  So far, so good.

2. Now we can see that progressives, and LW/RW populists weren't assigned to anyone.  For progressives, ShortKing has the most, so he gets the card.  That is legal because he also holds liberals.  However, the multiple card allowances for progressives is 2, so does that mean that jnewt (2nd most progressives) gets the card as well?  If he doesn't get that card, that leads to...

3.  For LW Populists, jnewt has the most.  But in #2, if he doesn't get the progressives card, he can't have the LW populist card.  Therefore, ShortKing has the next most, so he would get the card instead.

4.  RW Populist goes to Largo, as he has the most, and also holds the traditionalists card.  However, the multiple card allowances is 0, so does that mean nobody gets the card?  This seems to be in conflict with the rules that every ideology card should be distributed as long as someone has 5 politicians. 

So really, this boils down to my original question, which is what does multiple card allowances do?  If it is a minimum value, then jnewt would end up with both progressives and LW populists, while ShortKing would only get progressives (not counting their original cards in step 1).  Also, the multiple card allowances of 0 for RW populists is throwing me for a loop.    

[ebrk85]

1 hour ago, Murrman104 said:

If it makes you feel better i was also talking to @ebrk85 about this exact topic yesterday trying to figure out why i got certain lobbys and realising i need to try and start a decades long scheme to get a better interest for my faction 

Well at least I know what card allowances if supposed to be now since it isn't referenced in the rules. Which changes some things and leads to more confusion elsewhere lol

Edited March 22, 2023 by ebrk85

[MrPotatoTed]

1 hour ago, Umbrella said:

Yeah, I feel like I am being so dense here.  Pardon my ignorance, but I'm going to step through how I think it should work:

1. Using what Ted said, ShortKing gets liberals, Ebrk85, matthewyoung, RedRight get moderates, Murrman gets conservatives, jnewt and PotatoTed get liberals, I get moderates, BlueRight gets conservatives, Largo gets Traditionalists.  This is based on the highest number each faction has.  So far, so good.

2. Now we can see that progressives, and LW/RW populists weren't assigned to anyone.  For progressives, ShortKing has the most, so he gets the card.  That is legal because he also holds liberals.  However, the multiple card allowances for progressives is 2, so does that mean that jnewt (2nd most progressives) gets the card as well?  If he doesn't get that card, that leads to...

3.  For LW Populists, jnewt has the most.  But in #2, if he doesn't get the progressives card, he can't have the LW populist card.  Therefore, ShortKing has the next most, so he would get the card instead.

4.  RW Populist goes to Largo, as he has the most, and also holds the traditionalists card.  However, the multiple card allowances is 0, so does that mean nobody gets the card?  This seems to be in conflict with the rules that every ideology card should be distributed as long as someone has 5 politicians. 

So really, this boils down to my original question, which is what does multiple card allowances do?  If it is a minimum value, then jnewt would end up with both progressives and LW populists, while ShortKing would only get progressives (not counting their original cards in step 1).  Also, the multiple card allowances of 0 for RW populists is throwing me for a loop.    

I’m not looking at the sheets, so taking your word at who has the most of what:

2: Yes, Jnewt would also get it.

3: Yes hypothetically, but in really jnewt got it because the answer to number two was a yes.

4: Uh oh. You guys must be using an outdated faction sheet.  Every ideology should have a minimum of 1 (can be more than 1 for the minimum) it should never be zero for ideologies.

in fact, all interests and lobbies should also have a minimum of at least 1.  (Even if some eras will still end up being zero because no politicians have those expertises, etc)

[ebrk85]

1 minute ago, MrPotatoTed said:

I’m not looking at the sheets, so taking your word at who has the most of what:

2: Yes, Jnewt would also get it.

3: Yes hypothetically, but in really jnewt got it because the answer to number two was a yes.

4: Uh oh. You guys must be using an outdated faction sheet.  Every ideology should have a minimum of 1 (can be more than 1 for the minimum) it should never be zero for ideologies.

in fact, all interests and lobbies should also have a minimum of at least 1.  (Even if some eras will still end up being zero because no politicians have those expertises, etc)

The master doc I got the numbers from also has zeros as well. Which I just ignored since the rules say they must all be given out.

[MrPotatoTed]

2 hours ago, ebrk85 said:

The master doc I got the numbers from also has zeros as well. Which I just ignored since the rules say they must all be given out.

Agreed, we need to correct the master sheet on that @vcczar

[10centjimmy]

5 hours ago, Murrman104 said:

Can i target Kingsley Taft instead? If not no targets 

Fails, Kingsley Taft loses pliable

[10centjimmy]

2.1.8 Faction Personalities

 

Blue Party

(Ideology - SP Interests - Lobbies)

@jnewt Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Housing, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare

@Umbrella Mod - Expansionists - Public Education, Free Trade, Welfare

BlueRight Cons - RW Activists - Wall Street, Law & Order, Military-Industrial, Transportation, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas

@Largo833Trad/RW Pop - Theocrats, Nationalists, RW Activists - Private Education Isolationists

 

Red Party

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science 

@ebrk85 Mod - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Wall Street, Big Oil & Gas, Globalists, Military-Industrial, Big Pharma

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation

RedRight Mod - Pacifists - Big Pharma, Big Tech, Environmentalists

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, Isolationists, RW Media, Protectionist

[MrPotatoTed]

25 minutes ago, 10centjimmy said:

 

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare

 

We're here to save the world and kick ass.

And we're all out of ass.

[Umbrella]

40 minutes ago, 10centjimmy said:

2.1.8 Faction Personalities

 

Blue Party

(Ideology - SP Interests - Lobbies)

@jnewt Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Housing, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare

@Umbrella Mod - Expansionists - Public Education, Free Trade, Welfare

BlueRight Cons - RW Activists - Wall Street, Law & Order, Military-Industrial, Transportation, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas

@Largo833Trad/RW Pop - Theocrats, Nationalists, RW Activists - Private Education Isolationists

 

Red Party

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science 

@ebrk85 Mod - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Wall Street, Big Oil & Gas, Globalists, Military-Industrial, Big Pharma

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation

RedRight Mod - Pacifists - Big Pharma, Big Tech, Environmentalists

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, Isolationists, RW Media, Protectionist

This is pretty close to what I thought it would be, so I think I'm finally starting to wrap my mind around this.  Here are the ones I have questions about:

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science : Why did he get LW pop if jnewt already has it? 

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation:  Intuitively, I get it, but I didn't see in the rules where the president overrides his party.  Also, why did he get transportation if PotatoTed has it?  

RedRight Mod - Pacifists - Big Pharma, Big Tech, Environmentalists: I don't think he can get pacifist if he's moderate, can he?  I know that leaves him without an interest card, but the rules say that's OK.  

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, Isolationists, RW Media, Protectionist: Why did he get trad and RW Pop?  

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare: Should he get LW activist as well?

I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just trying to understand how these cards get assigned.

ETA: Fixed some of my errors.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Umbrella

[MrPotatoTed]

4 minutes ago, Umbrella said:

This is pretty close to what I thought it would be, so I think I'm finally starting to wrap my mind around this.  Here are the ones I have questions about:

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science : Why did he get LW pop if jnewt already has it? 

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation:  Intuitively, I get it, but I didn't see in the rules where the president overrides his party.  Also, why did he get transportation if PotatoTed has it?  And finally, should he get public housing as part of the tie?

RedRight Mod - Pacifists - Big Pharma, Big Tech, Environmentalists: I don't think he can get pacifist if he's moderate, can he?  I know that leaves him without an interest card, but the rules say that's OK.  

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, Isolationists, RW Media, Protectionist: Why did he get trad and RW Pop?  And therefore, RW Media? 

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare: Should he get LW activist as well?

@Largo833Trad/RW Pop - Theocrats, Nationalists, RW Activists - Private Education Isolationists: If Murrman doesn't get RW Media, should it go here instead?

I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just trying to understand how these cards get assigned.

 

Fair questions!  I'll let @10centjimmy take first stab at answering since he's the one who did it, but if there's still questions/concerns after that, let me know and I'll take a look to see if I can help address any confusion (or mistakes, or whatever)

[10centjimmy]

2.2 Leaders Emerge  (PLEASE READ TO THE END)

House

As we have a new Democratic (Blue) House Majority, need nominations for Speaker, House Majority Leader, and House Minority Leader.

Currently eligible for Speaker and House Majority Leader:

@Umbrella Cordell Hull (previously House Minority Leader)

@Umbrella Sam Rayburn (prev. House Minority Whip)

Currently eligible for House Majority Whip

Cordell Hull and Sam Rayburn...but since they'll likely hold the top 2 spots it seems like this slot is open. 

--

The Republicans are also interesting, as the top 2 leaders (Fmr Speaker La Guardia and Maj Ldr Tilson) are no longer in Congress. So leadership is pretty open!

Currently eligible for House Minority Leader and House Minority Whip

RedRight Wallace H White Jr (prev House Maj Whip)

@Murrman104  Dewey Jackson Short (Committee Chair exp)

@ShortKing James Wolfenden (Committee Chair exp)

 

 

Senate

The Senate is now tied at 48-48, but with VP Curtis the Republicans (Red) own the Majority. However, Senate Maj Leader Hebert lost re-election and promptly retired so the leadership is wide open! 

Currently eligible for Senate Majority Leader and Senate Majority Whip

@ShortKing Hiram Johnson (prev. Sen Majority Whip)

@ShortKing Robert La Follette Jr (leadership)

@ebrk85 Wesley L Jones (Committee Chair exp)

@matthewyoung123 John J Blaine (committee chair exp)

RedRight James Eli Watson (committee chair exp)

RedRight George H Moses (leadership)

@Murrman104 Arthur Vandenberg (leadership)

@Murrman104 Style Bridges (leadership)

 

--

The Democratic Senate Leadership did not get shuffled around but the election saw a newcomer with the traits necessary to rock the boat...

Currently eligible for Senate Minority Leader and Senate Minority Whip

@Umbrella Carl Hayden (prev Sen Min Leader)

@MrPotatoTed Robert F Wagner (prev Sen Min Whip)

@jnewt Huey P Long (leadership)

 

 

ACTION by 9pm Eastern Thursday - Name your nominees for these positions, as relevant, and let me know if you will not run for leadership.  Special flag for BLUE Party for nominees for House Majority Whip as all reps in the House will be eligible for that position.  Tagging @Largo833 as well. 

 

[10centjimmy]

10 minutes ago, Umbrella said:

This is pretty close to what I thought it would be, so I think I'm finally starting to wrap my mind around this.  Here are the ones I have questions about:

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science : Why did he get LW pop if jnewt already has it? This one and Murr's are the same, so they should probably lose them but maybe this can be addressed in the rules? 

@MrPotatoTedwhile the minimum level of 1 per ideology is set, the rules state that the cards are distributed and that certain ideologies may be guaranteed more than one ideology.  Only in Ideologies (not interests or lobbies) I could see it as a floor, not a ceiling. To clarify, this could mean that every ideology (if represented in the party by pols) will be allocated to the factions. So we have SK who has LWpops/progs/Libs in his faction, and no other Red faction does, his faction represents the Far Left of the Republicans. Likewise for Murr, no other Red faction has Trads or RW pops and since he does, they'd be represented by his faction. Now, if Murr or SK, or Jnewt or Largo shift their pols out of those extremes, then it makes sense to me that they wouldn't keep those ideos.  Obviously this is differently applied in interests and lobbies, but something I must have tripped over when first setting this up in the last term. 

 

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation:  Intuitively, I get it, but I didn't see in the rules where the president overrides his party.  Also, why did he get transportation if PotatoTed has it?   Missed deletion on my part

RedRight Mod - Pacifists - Big Pharma, Big Tech, Environmentalists: I don't think he can get pacifist if he's moderate, can he?  I know that leaves him without an interest card, but the rules say that's OK.   I'm pretty sure it was given to RR last time since @ebrk85 flagged stuff should get shared, the same issue was with Ebrk and Matthew's factions getting the Expansionist cards...so maybe this rule was clarified in the past few weeks? Happy to remove it.

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, Isolationists, RW Media, Protectionist: Why did he get trad and RW Pop?   See above the SK question

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists - Big Agriculture, Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare: Should he get LW activist as well? Because SK and Jnewt took the LW Activist cards with their pols (Sk has  35, Jnewt has 38, while Ted has 21)

 

[Umbrella]

Sam Rayburn will be Speaker of the House.

Cordell Hull will be House Majority Leader.

Carl Hayden will run for Senate Minority Leader.

I'll decline to run anyone for the whip positions, unless Hayden loses.  Then I'll run him for Senate Minority Whip.

To my fellow Democrats, if you are willing to vote for Hayden as Senate Minority Leader, I'm sure I can find some house committee chairs for you.

[MrPotatoTed]

Ok, I've taken a look at the factions and here is what I'm coming up with.

IDEOLOGIES:  I can understand why Jimmy gave @matthewyoung123 Conservatives as he has President Hoover and the elected President is always the faction/party leader.  However, while the thing about the President being party leader is in the rules, I can't find any support for the idea that this impacts ideology eligibility.  So it's not "Cancel the Moderate card because Hoover is President," its "Hoover is President despite the moderate card."  Does that make sense? I admit it's not a simple thing to grasp.  But the idea is that the sitting President doesn't block anything -- he just remains the faction/party leader by virtue of his elected position even if his faction cards shift.  

Also, I believe @10centjimmy might be under the mistaken impression that every ideology must be assigned to at least one faction in each party.  This is not accurate.  For example, if you were making a 2022 playthrough, the Republican Party would not have a Progressive faction.  The requirement is only that each ideology be assigned to a faction in the game, NOT necessarily both parties.

Bold are Jimmy's things that I confirmed as accurate.  Strikethrough is what I disagree with.  Plain text are my additions.

Of course, @10centjimmy or anybody else, please let me know if something below still doesn't make sense, because I'm certainly not infallible of making mistakes either.

Overall, considering I believe this was one of Jimmy's first times running this, not bad!

 

@jnewt Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists - Big Agriculture, Public Housing, (Nobody has at least 5 politicians with housing, so nobody gets that card),  Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare

@MrPotatoTed Lib - Reformists -  Environmentalists, Globalists, Public Healthcare, Public Housing, Human Rights, Labor Unions, Transportation, Welfare

@Umbrella Mod - Expansionists - Public Education, Free Trade, Welfare

BlueRight Cons - RW Activists - Wall Street, Law & Order, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas

@Largo833Trad/RW Pop - Theocrats, Nationalists, RW Activists - Isolationists

 

Red Party

@ShortKing Lib/Prog/LW Pop - Civil Rights, Pacifists, LW Activists, Reformists, Public Healthcare, Labor Unions, LW Media, Welfare, Science 

@ebrk85 Mod - Expansionists - Big Agriculture, Wall Street, Big Oil & Gas, Globalists, Military-Industrial, Big Pharma

@matthewyoung123 Cons (due to Herbert Hoover) Moderate (see my explanation above, re: Hoover) - Expansionists Big Corporations, Private Education, Big Oil & Gas, Military-Industrial, Free Trade, Transportation

RedRight Mod - Pacifists  (Can't go to a Moderate, and RedRight has no other interests with at least 5 politicians, so he does not get an interest card) - Big Tech, Environmentalists

@Murrman104  Cons/Trad/RW Pop - Nationalist - Big Corporations, RW Media, Protectionist

[ShortKing]

3 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

IDEOLOGIES:  I can understand why Jimmy gave @matthewyoung123 Conservatives as he has President Hoover and the elected President is always the faction/party leader.  However, while the thing about the President being party leader is in the rules, I can't find any support for the idea that this impacts ideology eligibility.  So it's not "Cancel the Moderate card because Hoover is President," its "Hoover is President despite the moderate card."  Does that make sense? I admit it's not a simple thing to grasp.  But the idea is that the sitting President doesn't block anything -- he just remains the faction/party leader by virtue of his elected position even if his faction cards shift.  

Unless my copy of the rules is not up to date, this is what I see in section 2.2.3 Faction Leaders Selected

[ebrk85]

Just now, ShortKing said:

Unless my copy of the rules is not up to date, this is what I see in section 2.2.3 Faction Leaders Selected

Thanks SK. I was just looking that up as well. I knew it was in there somewhere lol.

So for Matt's faction they both are correct and wrong HA. As it was explained to me, they would get the Moderate card as normally assigned by determining the cards but because Hoover is Conservative they are also assigned that card in addition. And as faction leader, the Conservative card would be used when doing enthusiasm changes.

[ShortKing]

I will say, my understanding is that if the faction should theoretically only qualify for the mod card due to having more mods than anything else, but a con pol gets elected President, that the faction in question would have both mod and con. An open question that I personally do not have a stance on yet is if a faction should theoretically only qualify for the mod card due to having more mods than anything else and a trad pol is elected President from that faction. Technically, you're not supposed to have two ideology cards that are not bordering each other, so I see the argument for having cards for mods, cons, and trads, but since this is an explicitly "special rule", I could also see this being the exception for having the mod card and the trad card but not the cons card

Edited March 23, 2023 by ShortKing

[MrPotatoTed]

3 minutes ago, ShortKing said:

Unless my copy of the rules is not up to date, this is what I see in section 2.2.3 Faction Leaders Selected

Ah, good catch.  That's in 2.2 though, when we select faction leaders.  We're in 2.1 now.

So my interpretation would be that @matthewyoung123 will ultimately end up with both cards.    Just the Moderate card for now as that's the card he's earned.  But when we reach Faction Leader assignments, he'll also gain the Conservative card.

[ebrk85]

2 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said:

Ah, good catch.  That's in 2.2 though, when we select faction leaders.  We're in 2.1 now.

So my interpretation would be that @matthewyoung123 will ultimately end up with both cards.    Just the Moderate card for now as that's the card he's earned.  But when we reach Faction Leader assignments, he'll also gain the Conservative card.

I mean I sort of agree if he was just elected but every 2 years are we really just going to take the Moderate card away from the faction from the end of 2.1 until faction selection in 2.2 just to award it right back. Everytime.

Edited March 23, 2023 by ebrk85

[MrPotatoTed]

1 minute ago, ebrk85 said:

I mean I sort of agree if he was just elected but every 2 years are we really just going to take the Moderate card away from the faction from the end of 2.1 until faction selection in 2.2 just to award it right back. Everytime.

I don't plan to be a stickler about it.  I never even "fact check" the card assignments anyway, usually. I only looked because Umbrella had questions and Jimmy is relatively new to doing it.  So I defer to Jimmy on how he wants to do that part, as long as (in this case) they'd ultimately end up with both Moderate and Conservative cards.  (The difference is assigning both cards in 2.1 would hypothetically change what interests and lobbies the faction is eligible for -- not in this particular case, but it could next time).

[ebrk85]

Just now, MrPotatoTed said:

I don't plan to be a stickler about it.  I never even "fact check" the card assignments anyway, usually. I only looked because Umbrella had questions and Jimmy is relatively new to doing it.  So I defer to Jimmy on how he wants to do that part, as long as (in this case) they'd ultimately end up with both Moderate and Conservative cards.  (The difference is assigning both cards in 2.1 would hypothetically change what interests and lobbies the faction is eligible for -- not in this particular case, but it could next time).

Ok that is fair. I tack on the President's card at the end after I figure out the all the rest.  We've been dealing with this in 1948 since Pres Taft of the far right faction shifted himself to Moderate.

[ebrk85]

I should add "accidentally" shifted himself to Moderate 😂🤔