Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 President Zelensky says he attempted to set up a phone call with Putin, but never heard back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, MrPotatoTed said: I think you’ve successfully touched on what is so often lost on anti-war activists — not that you are advocating in favor of war, of course. But so often the casualties, costs, and outcomes of war are decried — by people who never considered the casualties, costs, and outcomes of ignorant pacifism. Choosing not to act is still a choice — and one we are as responsible for as any other action we might take. No one denies that lives will be lost either way; however, it is the difference between American lives lost or not. I sympathize with the Ukrainian people, especially after the atrocities that took place under the Soviet Union. But, I do not want to see the US government forcing Americans to lose their lives in a faraway foreign land. If Americans wish to volunteer to go and fight for Ukraine, then I have no problem with that. But it should be a voluntary decision to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 President Zelensky appears to be making a direct plea to the Russian people - talking in Russian, saying that Ukraine did not attack Donetsk and that Ukraine does not want war with Russia. Rumors (posted online by a Guardian journalist) of an attack at 4am local time - we will wait to see if that's actually true. Roughly 3 hours from now. Kyiv still seems to be lively and on-edge according to this journalist, but people are staying up through the night to keep an eye on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 minute ago, jvikings1 said: No one denies that lives will be lost either way; however, it is the difference between American lives lost or not. I sympathize with the Ukrainian people, especially after the atrocities that took place under the Soviet Union. But, I do not want to see the US government forcing Americans to lose their lives in a faraway foreign land. If Americans wish to volunteer to go and fight for Ukraine, then I have no problem with that. But it should be a voluntary decision to do so. We don’t have a draft. All American military members volunteered to be sent wherever they were needed, at any time. The year is 2022. There is not a single servicemember enlisted today who is ignorant to the reality that we are sometimes — even often — at war. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 A NOTAM has been issued over the entire Ukrainian-Russian border. Maybe the worst sign yet. Basically means no flights incoming or outgoing - indeed, nothing in the air along that range. Kharkiv, Dnipro, other Ukrainian cities have already issued their own, but none as broad as this. This is a brief explainer (I had no idea what they were either). Image included after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Just now, Hestia said: A NOTAM has been issued over the entire Ukrainian-Russian border. Maybe the worst sign yet. Basically means no flights incoming or outgoing - indeed, nothing in the air along that range. Kharkiv, Dnipro, other Ukrainian cities have already issued their own, but none as broad as this. This is a brief explainer (I had no idea what they were either). Image included after. Edit: This was declared by Russia. Lasts to May 18. Kyiv mayor has declared an emergency for the Ukrainian capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Patine said: This may be all well and good, but the standpoint and record of the United States (and it's shadowy and non-transparent motives of it's own) are not one to make such a high ground from. We are talking about a nation whose EVERY military intervention in the Post-WW2 era, except arguably Grenada, has only made things WORSE in the end, and the U.S. has a long-standing bad habit of installing bloody-handed, human-rights abusing tyrants and supporting horrible militias just to stop ones backed by an enemy (usually the Soviets) who are, at the core of things, no worse, from gaining power, and the last thing either side wanted was for the people of said country to choose their leadership. Here's a good quote about supporting Chiang Kai-shek from the end of WW2 till his death in 1975, that illustrates the last part: "The man was a brutal, oppressive megalomaniac; that the man he was opposing was also a brutal, oppressive megalomaniac doesn't really diminish that fact. (No matter who won the Chinese civil war, the people of China were going to lose.)" The problem is, U.S. military doctrine hasn't really learned the key lessons and from the key failures it should have, and maintains the imperious arrogance of past great, overweaning empires of the past, such as the Roman and British Empires, in their days. So, the conundrum is, while I am COMPLETELY opposed to a military solution if things get really, I don't TRUST the United States, which still clings to Cold War military and political doctrine as much as Russia does, to be a significant part of it. Therein lies the problem... So you're saying the US should shut up and not say anything about Ukraine at all? No protests, no nothing? That solves absolutely nothing. If you're talking about militarily, which I'm frankly tired of people doing - the US has REPEATEDLY stated that we aren't getting involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Just now, Patine said: Biden hasn't taken the concept of military intervention off the table - he's just pretty much said it's not happening NOW. And given his long history of supporting said warmingering and other disastrous policies I was talking about for about 30 years in the Senate, I don't regard the issue of a possible intervention as case closed. Alright, I concede the point that if you're talking about that specific case in which the US *may* get involved, then fine. However, I think Biden has made it pretty clear that we're not getting involved in Ukraine, as he would say "period". But, you and I both know there is more important things to talk about than to fiddle at the edges right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Regarding sanctions, I'm worried that they arent going to be very effective against a guy like Putin. No matter what angle we impose them from it's going to get spinned. Whatever we decide to do needs to be strong, coordinated, and targeted. Otherwise they are meaningless and will have the opposite intended effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pringles Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Also, @Hestia and others. I find this... intriguing lol. Not a good idea to generally rely on cryptos... *cough* but uh, intriguing concept nevertheless. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/business/russia-sanctions-cryptocurrency.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewt Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 3:43 PM, vcczar said: I just don't think he should use a teleprompter if he can't use them. He should just read off paper or speak off the top of his head or something. One has to be an effective communicator. Another thing he could do is just have someone else speak it for him. I don't think it is necessary that he gives the speech. Maybe pre-recording is better? It's just kind of embarrassing. I know this is a late response, but I haven't been on much. As for reading off paper, considering the effects we've seen aging has on him mentally, I would assume that his eyesight is pretty poor and thus he would struggle as much, if not more, reading off of paper. As for going teleprompter-less, like others have said, Biden speaking off the top of his head would lead to him going off on tangents at best and losing his train of thought at worst. And communicating with the public is an important part of being a leader, so I don't think passing off the responsibility to someone else would be a wise political move. I think pre-recording with cue cards or some other easy to read text is the best move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, MrPotatoTed said: We don’t have a draft. All American military members volunteered to be sent wherever they were needed, at any time. The year is 2022. There is not a single servicemember enlisted today who is ignorant to the reality that we are sometimes — even often — at war. Ok? I still do not want to reward those who sign up with being forced to go fight a war in a foreign land with little ties or values to the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Some planes are u-turning away from Ukraine - from Poland and Turkey, as well as one that left Kyiv is turning back towards the capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Official - Ukrainian airspace is closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 A Ukrainian checkpoint north of Crimea appears to have been attacked/raided. Posts online of a soldier running (from a live feed of cameras), 12 minutes later, the area is completely dark. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 US air force drone that was patrolling in eastern Ukraine all day now fleeing for Romanian airspace. There are reports of Russian strategic bombers in the air near Ukraine, chattering with ground command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Reportedly Mariupol, Ukraine just a few moments ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Vladimir Putin has essentially just declared war on Ukraine. He has announced a 'special military operation' and says Ukraine has 'crossed a red line' while US ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield is speaking at the UN. It is 6am in Moscow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvikings1 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hestia said: Vladimir Putin has essentially just declared war on Ukraine. He has announced a 'special military operation' and says Ukraine has 'crossed a red line' while US ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield is speaking at the UN. It is 6am in Moscow. No surprise that Putin announced it during the speech. He is trying to flex his muscle/power 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotatoTed Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, jvikings1 said: No surprise that Putin announced it during the speech. He is trying to flex his muscle/power And he will keep doing so, forever, until someone finally stops him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hestia Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Kharkiv is being hit live on stream. You can see the incoming and Ukrainian anti-aircraft fire returning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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